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Airline's 767 T/O & Landing Ops Specs  
User currently offlineTSRA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

Does anyone know what the airlines' Ops Specs for the 767 is for limiting take off and landing at airports? I see there was an AA 767 in LIH with a runway of 6500 feet and 767s operate out of OGG's 6995 foot runway. Of course the 767 has been in LGA (7003') and DCA (was 6869' now 7169').

On a side note - When did DCA go from 6869' to 7169' and how did they get the extra 300 feet?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineadipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

See page 57 and following:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/767.pdf



707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3420 times:

For a 767-300ER, it is about a 40,000lbs payload penalty for a 7,000ft runway at sea level. It's a hit in payload, but for domestic operations outside of Hawaii - East Coast/Midwest the additional payload is not needed. 767s operating from Hawaii to the west coast of the US rarely come close to needing MTOW.

From LGA or DCA, the 767 can fly anywhere within the perimeter without too many problems. Neither airport is a significant cargo airport, so with typical passenger loads, the 767 has no problem.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2973 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
767s operate out of OGG's 6995 foot runway.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
767s operating from Hawaii to the west coast of the US rarely come close to needing MTOW.

From what I understand, AA's OGG-DFW flight is right on the edge as far as takeoff performance on the one runway direction that has a slight upslope. I think they need to do a Packs Off takeoff to do it without a payload penalty.


User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

This is the longest 767 flight from OGG that I have seen.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...8/history/20111125/0200Z/PHOG/KRDU

Duke University Basketball Team returning from Maui Invitational.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 4):
This is the longest 767 flight from OGG that I have seen.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...8/history/20111125/0200Z/PHOG/KRDU

Duke University Basketball Team returning from Maui Invitational.

A basketball team is hardly a full payload flight. Typically the basketball teams fly on A320s, but that's not an option to Hawaii, so I don't' think it is a good comparison.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 5):
A basketball team is hardly a full payload flight

You're right, I wish we knew how many were on it, but it was probably light.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently onlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
For a 767-300ER, it is about a 40,000lbs payload penalty for a 7,000ft runway at sea level. It's a hit in payload

Are you sure you mean payload?
I can understand a hit in Take off weight, but whats payload got to do with it?
Max payload for a B767 is around 65000 lbs, so losing two thirds of that is massive.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
On a side note - When did DCA go from 6869' to 7169' and how did they get the extra 300 feet?

It's still 2094m on my charts (Feb2012), which is 6870'. Perhaps you looked at the TODA ?

Quoting TSRA (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what the airlines' Ops Specs for the 767 is for limiting take off and landing at airports? I see there was an AA 767 in LIH with a runway of 6500 feet and 767s operate out of OGG's 6995 foot runway. Of course the 767 has been in LGA (7003') and DCA (was 6869' now 7169').

Hmm... 6000ft can do 155tons TOW, and 7000ft can do 162tons TOW, based on zero slope, zero wind, dry runway, flap20, 15C OAT. No derates, and PW4060 engines, no obstacles...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9770 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2850 times:
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Quoting mandala499 (Reply 8):
It's still 2094m on my charts (Feb2012), which is 6870'. Perhaps you looked at the TODA ?

Airnav has it listed at 7169 feet:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KDCA

Though measuring it on Google Maps gives me 6880 feet (though that may be an old photo).

Here you go:

http://www.mwaa.com/reagan/3925.htm

Shifting one runway safety area 300 feet to the south

That would do it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

When Obama was inaugurated DL ran domestic 763s between DCA and ATL.


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlinetsra From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Thank you all for the information. I hear an airport that handles charters is looking at pursuing NFL charters as well. This airport sees everything from 737s, 320s, MD80s, and 757s but was not sure a 767 could make it. It appears the 767 would be able to operate from this airport. I did not see, but does anyone know the penalty and credit given to runway slope and wind? The airport in question runway is around 6850' with a slight slope (about 14' difference between either runway end).

User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

You also have to worry about obstacles and engine out departure procedures. Max takeoff weight isn't just limited by field length.


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlinetsra From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 12):

Good point. I think there are obstacles around this airport but not sure if they are an issue. I wonder if there is a chart that would show that limitation?


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting tsra (Reply 13):
Good point. I think there are obstacles around this airport but not sure if they are an issue. I wonder if there is a chart that would show that limitation?

For DCA? No obstacles for rwy 19, but 01, more or less you'd be limited to 150tons Obstacle Clearance TOW for obstacle clearance on all the take off flap settings for 763ER with PW4060.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Several points, some mentioned already, some not:
-The ATOW - actual take-off weight is the consideration. This of course means that fuel is a part of it. Less flighttime = less fuel, that means either more payload (if limited) or better performance. If you take bare minimum of fuel, long-range aircraft can take-off at surprisingly tight spots even with full payloads. Sometimes you can see that planes take-off full of payload for a short flight somewhere with a long runway for fuel, typical at SXM, or at least used to be. Like KLM 747s that used to go to Curacao I think.

-You also have to consider obstacles. If you have 5miles long runway, but there is a hill on the end, you are more often than not out of luck. However the length helps with accelerate-stop performance and landing performance, so it might still make sense.

-Considering obstacles, flap setting is important. Lower flaps means better climbout, but more field required. And vice versa. This means that airports on flatlands, or heading out to the sea can benefit from high flap take-offs, which will mean that while you are basically crawling up from the ground (thank you earth for being round), you can lift off relatively soon. OTOH, in mountainous areas, use as low a flap setting as practical, and while it will look like you are accelerating on the runway for an eternity, once you are airborne, you climb like a homesick angel.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinetsra From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

I would not think payload would be an issue with an NFL team on a 767 that is flying domestically. NFL teams have a 53 man roster with 40 or so coaches and support staff. I would guess their equipment would be around 5000-6000 pounds and fuel between cities such as DEN-STL or IAH-MCI (typical short hops for NFL teams) would be relatively light. That being said, are light weights factored into obstruction clearances and single-engine operations?

User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2192 times:

Quoting tsra (Reply 16):
That being said, are light weights factored into obstruction clearances and single-engine operations?

The obstruction clearance says that at weight X, you will clear the obstacle; and thus, you can not takeoff at a weight heavier than X.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 17):
The obstruction clearance says that at weight X, you will clear the obstacle; and thus, you can not takeoff at a weight heavier than X.

That is of course relevant at V1 cut. Most, if not all, performance criteria are computed around this worst-case scenario (engine failure at V1 or close enought to V1 for the airplane to reach V1 just as reaction time passes)



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting tsra (Reply 16):
That being said, are light weights factored into obstruction clearances and single-engine operations?

It has to AFAIK.
Take the lowest allowable TOW for obstacle clearance, and field limitation. Both taking account for single engine fail at or near V1.
And since it's a Boeing, also take account climb limit weights if there are no obstacles, usually obstacle clearance weights are lower than climb limit weights anyways.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
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