CaptainKramer From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11890 times:
Dangerous is not the word, suicidal is more what I would be thinking. What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance. Imagine being on that plane looking out the window and see it commence it's takeoff roll with that amount of snow sitting on the wing.
Could a layer of ice have formed under the snow covering the wing if certain temperatures had prevailed at the time or before as the plane sat idle?
Phen From Ireland, joined Oct 2007, 294 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11859 times:
That is unbelievable, the spoilers are covered with snow; whats to say they won't freeze and seize up mid-flight?
Just as a side question- when the control surfaces are tested as part of the pre-flight checks, how does the flight deck know if there is a problem? Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly? Would the weight of snow/ice be enough to alert the crew of something wrong with one of the control surfaces?
CaptainKramer From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11820 times:
That's a good question Phen, you have to wonder if a control surface check was even done, surely it would have dislodged alot of snow if one had been performed. I can't see any evidence.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11809 times:
Quoting Phen (Reply 2): Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly?
Most modern jet transports have flight control position indicators which are monitored as the flight controls are being tested. On the A320, it is on the Flight Control ECAM page.
As the flight controls are being tested before takeoff this page is monitored for full control surface travel.
Also, if any of the FBW computers detect an error, it will be annunciated during this test.
However, with 3000 psi hydraulic pressure, and control surfaces that can go to full deflections at 350 knots, it is unlikely that snow or ice would hinder their movement.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Swept is more like it...it doesn't seem to have any ice on it.
Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1): What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance
By the time they rotate, the snow has blown off all the areas where there was smooth airflow anyway, so it's not surprising they made it. It's a fairly impressive act of faith to start rolling with the snow in place though.
Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1): Could a layer of ice have formed under the snow covering the wing if certain temperatures had prevailed at the time or before as the plane sat idle?
Yes, but the only way I can see anyone rationalizing something like this is during the time of year when it never gets close to being above freezing that you'd have any ice formation. It's possible, though I'd be surprised if they have an OpsSpec for it, that they know from experience that it's just dry snow without any ice and it will blow off.
Quoting Phen (Reply 2): That is unbelievable, the spoilers are covered with snow; whats to say they won't freeze and seize up mid-flight?
If that were a problem, you'd have the same thing happen every time an airplane takes off in the rain.
Quoting Phen (Reply 2): Just as a side question- when the control surfaces are tested as part of the pre-flight checks, how does the flight deck know if there is a problem?
If it's a modern aircraft with a flight control synoptic, the crew looks at the synoptic and verifies the surfaces are moving as commanded.
Quoting Phen (Reply 2): Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly?
On a FBW, there should be. The control surfaces are all closed loop so the control computers know when a surface isn't following the command.
Quoting Phen (Reply 2): Would the weight of snow/ice be enough to alert the crew of something wrong with one of the control surfaces?
No. The aerodynamic load is a lot more than the snow load, so the actuators are more than powerful enough to lift the snow.
yeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 526 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11766 times:
It would be interesting to read that airlines deice manual. They don't seem to abide by the clean airplane concept. As Tom said, they should have swept or blown the wings and horz. stab. at the very least. Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.
CaptainKramer From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11747 times:
Thanks tdscanuck,
Rationale will never trump physics, but I imagine some airlines still play that game.
That's why I can never get my head around pilots who risk an airplane and it's passengers by foregoing a deice to make up for lost time or save money and risk being permanently late, or not performing a go-around when landing long in bad weather just to maintain a schedual or save money. Your schedule is well and trully shot if you write the plane off and kill your customers.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4264 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11749 times:
You know, back when I started in aviation (late 80's) it was not uncommon for an aircraft to depart with snow on the wings/fuselage so long as it hadn't iced up and wasn't to 'wet'.
This blew off pretty well before take-off.
All in all, this type of take-off is now against the rules, at least here in the US.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3496 posts, RR: 72 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11720 times:
I have seen this type of flying countless times in the olld Soviet Union, at Moscou, Kiev and various airports.
with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow and tha powdered snow is made of "rounder" crystals than the pretty branched ones you'd find at temperatures around zero.
That means the snow will never compact on its own but will blow off with the relative airflow.
First time I saw it, it was an IL-62 with about - I swear ! - 10 cm of snow on its surfaces and I called the tower to tell about an aircraft that hadn't deiced I had to repeat the message ten times - the tower didn't get it and the -62 took off in a spectacular cloud of blown white snow... five minutes later a TU 154 did the same, and then another...
The above info was given to me by a senior Aeroflot captain who clmaimed tha it is in fact safer than deicing and then letting the validity time elapse...
One has to be very sure of oneself and that puts the proverbial act of faith into another perspective.
darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 982 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11649 times:
Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1): What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance.
We don't know that there wasn't performance degradation. This can happen without being obvious to a video, just as an aside...
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5): It's a fairly impressive act of faith to start rolling with the snow in place though.
Quite Very, yes.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5): It's possible, though I'd be surprised if they have an OpsSpec for it, that they know from experience that it's just dry snow without any ice and it will blow off.
Could they, from a regulatory standpoint, remove a patch of snow from the wing surface and inspect? I know that a refueler, for example, will have very easy access to the wingtops on the A32x series, and they're nearby anyway prior to flight. I know that's a no-go here, but as the OP said... This is Russia.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
No. The aerodynamic load is a lot more than the snow load, so the actuators are more than powerful enough to lift the snow.
I once witnessed a tool bag get flung about ten feet in front of a 757-200 wing when another mechanic inadvertently deployed spoilers without checking the wings first. Those actuators are indeed no joke.
Quoting yeelep (Reply 6): Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.
That would certainly add a ridiculous amount of time, and really isn't necessary.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8): All in all, this type of take-off is now against the rules, at least here in the US.
Gone the way of the power-back...
Posting without Talent is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
yeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 526 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11629 times:
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 11): Quoting yeelep (Reply 6):
Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.
That would certainly add a ridiculous amount of time, and really isn't necessary.
Necessary or not, if its part of your approved deice program, you have to abide. And once its part of the program, its very difficult to have it removed.
spudsmac From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 283 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11443 times:
I wonder what would happen to you in the US if you saw this was going to occur, alerted the FA, was dismissed by them and you popped the emergency exit in a last ditch effort to stop the T/O.
If I get in that situation, I think that's the best way tot stop the takeoff.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11406 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 9): First time I saw it, it was an IL-62 with about - I swear ! - 10 cm of snow on its surfaces and I called the tower to tell about an aircraft that hadn't deiced I had to repeat the message ten times - the tower didn't get it and the -62 took off in a spectacular cloud of blown white snow... five minutes later a TU 154 did the same, and then another...
I figured this was a throwback "procedure" to the days of the classic soviet airliners. Things were built like tanks.
U2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 302 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11215 times:
Quoting spudsmac (Reply 13): I wonder what would happen to you in the US if you saw this was going to occur, alerted the FA, was dismissed by them and you popped the emergency exit in a last ditch effort to stop the T/O.
If I get in that situation, I think that's the best way tot stop the takeoff.
I can only guess but:
Before the takeoff roll- probably some time in prison and a very large fine.
BA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2139 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11168 times:
Zero airmanship shown in this video.
You would think the pilots would notice contaminated surfaces during the walkaround. You would think the airline would have a "clean wing" policy and reassure pilots that the time taken to de-ice, even if not sure it's needed, is the safe option and safety is the first priority.
As mentioned above, the potential for ice below the snow is the real threat and of course until the snow is removed the ice is very hard to detect. It's the ice that will increase the drag and the stall speed of the aircraft and end up killing everyone.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3496 posts, RR: 72 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11108 times:
Quoting BA777 (Reply 16): Zero airmanship shown in this video.
And who are you to tell ?
Part of airmanship is SA, in this case knowledge of the weather phenomna one is going to fly in and ice physics say that , provided the OAT hasn'tclimbed into positive temperatures since the airplane last flight, dry powdered snow isn't going to stick to the airframe... Actually, this is an illustration of a particular type of airmanship.
For those clamouring for de-icing, here is a challenge : OAT = -26°C / light snow, de-icing fluids available : Generic Types I, II and IV. What are the HOTs ?.. Now suppose that you deice at the gate but youy suffer a 15 min delay for cargo offloading. Taxi time is 10 minutes.(All the info is on the web, so no excuse )
PapaChuck From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 134 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10980 times:
Problem is, the snow/slush was still clinging to the wings after it became airborne. It didn't just blow away. You can't tell me the wing was clean when it left the ground. Air Ontario 1363, anyone? Yikes!
CM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10946 times:
OK, that was troubling.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 9): with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5): the only way I can see anyone rationalizing something like this is during the time of year when it never gets close to being above freezing
I'm sure this is why they can take off with confidence, but it still seems crazy to me. All it would take is for that airplane to be fueled by a truck which spent the night in a maintenance depot, or through some other circumstance had its fuel load warmed to 1 degree above freezing. If that airplane had been fueled with an uplift which was above freezing you would have ice underneath the snow and an aerodynamically very different wing. I guess because they note the temp of the fuel at uplift, they can have confidence this has not happened also, but I would never feel comfortable flying on that airplane.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 9): a senior Aeroflot captain who clmaimed tha it is in fact safer than deicing and then letting the validity time elapse...
In exceptionally cold weather, once the extreme cold weather startup procedures are complete, I suppose it would be possible that waiting too long for de-icing could result in undoing some of what you have just done to get ready to fly. That's why an infrared taxi-through style de-icing tent would be handy for operators who need to de-ice 100+ days per year.
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1001 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10751 times:
Anybody know which operator this is ?
It seems that this kind of thing used to go on back in the day during the Soviet aircraft domestic operations, and there are still some pilots that still think that it is still ok.
The A320 FCOM requires the wing to be clear of snow and Ice for take-off. They are clearly violating this requirement.
I wonder if this airline has any codeshare partner or is a member of one of the Alliances, i'm sure they would be very interested to see this?
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 21): I wonder if this airline has any codeshare partner or is a member of one of the Alliances, i'm sure they would be very interested to see this?
It's Aeroflot, Airbus A320-214, VP-BKY.
Date 01.01.2012, flight from SVO to LED.
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1001 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10598 times:
Quoting Hywel (Reply 22):
It's Aeroflot, Airbus A320-214, VP-BKY.
Date 01.01.2012, flight from SVO to LED.
I bet SkyTeam are interested...
Aeroflot ?
Well this is going to do a lot of damage to Aeroflot's reputation. With social media the way it is today you just can't get away with this kind of stuff anymore.
I'm sure their Skyteam partners are going to be very interested in this.
They have made a big effort to move away from the old Aeroflot image of the past, with nice modern new Boeing and Airbus types, but this is going to give the perception that the old Aeroflot is alive and well.
ferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 1785 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10582 times:
@Pihero, thanks for giving the insight into how the Russians view this, guess they have a lot of experience about cold weather flying that the rest of world (except for Alska) does not have. We learned this already at WW2.
Am I the only one to see that he flow is not attached above the pylon fairings? Guess the turbulent air passing the fairings below the flap makes no good mating partner for the air passing above the wing. Should be possible to do something better here .
Non French in France
25 Hywel: Well remember Aeroflot flight 821? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_821 The main reason for the crash was that both pilots had lost spati
26 rdh3e: Using Ropes over the wings to break away ice is still approved practice at many major airlines...
27 rcair1: I would be screaming bloody murder - although the charge would be manslaughter in the event of a crash. As mentioned, the actuators can overpower the
28 tdscanuck: We're talking Russia in the winter; sustained temperature that never go about about -10C. Depending on their other operating environment, they may ha
29 Pihero: What has that got to do with this subject ? You're just seeing in real life - and understanding, I hope - what "boundary layer" means : a very thin s
30 clydenairways: Surely you still need the manufacturer to approve an amendment to the FCOM? I'd be surprised if Aeroflot and the Russian CAA have modified the FCOM o
31 Pihero: Obviously, these conditions ( temperatures and dew points just around freezing point ) completely change the whole picture and the likeliness of ice
32 PapaChuck: I understand the boundary layer issue, and that most of the remaining snow is clear of any critical airflow. It was probably safe to depart, but proba
33 sabenapilot: Did somebody already notice there's a small area towards the end of the wing, which looks like it had its snow removed prior to the take off? Seems to
34 zeke: We use the Transport Canada HOT guidelines (http://66.46.192.186/index.html), they have updated the guidelines with the use of brooms. "Using the win
35 tdscanuck: There's not regulatory requirement for that; I'm sure the OEM would like the authority but the regulator is free to do whatever they want. It wouldn'
36 sabenapilot: Most regulators will simply endorse whatever the OEM publishes in its FCOM, yet any country's regulator may indeed override any part of the FCOM if a
37 zeke: Generally speaking the FCOMs are the recommended amplified manufacturers procedures, the actual legal document is normally the approved flight manual
38 HAWK21M: A View of the Leading edges would have been Interesting....
39 Fabo: Damn. I would have been scared s**tless were I sitting there.
40 Pihero: I agree, that was an aspect I was about to comment on. You're way faster than I ! Yes, a bit of contradiction to the 01 / 01 METARS. And thanks for t
41 BEG2IAH: The same thing you notice when you go skiing. If you leave your skis in your hotel room overnight, they are warm and the snow will stick to them real
42 TheRedBaron: Same here, but since the pilots lives are on the line....I would close the shade and try to enjoy the flight. Pilots are not stupid suicidal.... so I
43 bikerthai: Maybe not. The Anti Ice system would probably have been on, so the leading edge would have been clean. Unless their operating procedure allow them to
44 Pihero: No. Anti-ice works only when the airplane is airborne.
45 BEG2IAH: Pihero, three quick questions. 1) Is that to prevent injuries of ground handlers? 2) Is it to avoid unintentional icing of the part of the wing adjac
46 Pihero: One has to know that the wing anti-ice only concerns the last three outboard slats and that it is done by bleed air. So : -it only works with the engi
48 Pihero: Not enough : and when airborne..Except for a total time of 30 seconds for ground testing.. With the engines not running, no anti-ioce, but then you'd
49 bikerthai: Is this true with Inlet Anti-Ice also? I understand that you may not want to take bleed air during the stage when you need max power for take-off. Bu
50 zeke: You are talking about engine anti-ice, and Pihero is talking about wing anti- ice. One is on the engine inlet, the other the wing leading edge. I mig
51 AirframeAS: Not when costs come into play. It is very, very expensive to deice one airplane. At my airline, the only things that get deiced are the wings, tail a
53 Pihero: No. it can be selected on the ground as you could have ice forming inside the inlet due to the sudden depression the air mass finds while being swall
54 Pihero: They aren't . The wing anti-ice takes air from the general bleed system; Engine anti-ice has its own pick-up from the HP stages of the engine.
55 bikerthai: Makes sense now . . . specially now that I remember that the wing anti-ice air have to go through the pre-cooler. Wouldn't want to waste all that ene
56 Fabo: They may not be suicidal... but they would not be first nor last to be stupid...
57 Flight152: Seems this crew's Russian winter weather experience also came in handy. Oh wait, nevermind, their refusal to get deiced resulted in the aircraft crash
58 GCPET: Why are some Russian Pilots so reluctant to De-Ice the plane? They know the risk they're taking by not and it's simply not worth it is it? GCPET
59 Pihero: Please compare what's comparable. 1/- just have a look at the wx report as quite a lot of important data were not reported : Ceiling broken Cumulonim
60 RVV2011: Strange that a section of the wing appears not to have snow on it, on the leading edge and a smaller section aft, towards wingtip. It was checked, und
61 Starlionblue: I doubt it. People who fly Aeroflot "know" they're not LH, CX or AA. Aeroflot's reputation is hardly stellar among "normal people".. I would be scare
62 Fabo: I dont think this is the case anymore. They have done a lot to distance themselves from old stereotypes. New, very nice branding, Western planes... I
63 futureualpilot: I disagree with Pihero. The only "airmanship" being demonstrated here is stupidity. Experience doesn't overpower a contaminated wing. There are an awf
64 Pihero: If you're an airline pilot, you should find the right answer... and, no, the answer is not : "If you exceed the HOTs, go de-ice again." as you wrote.
65 abnormal: I've always adhered to the clean wing concept but for future reference, can somebody clarify exactly where it states that subject Airplane should have
66 mandala499: Really? It is where I am ("AFM or equivalent"). Deviations from the FCOMs must be approved by the OEM and/or regulator prior to use... usually, the r
67 abnormal: Yes - Really, and rarely, if ever, is an NTO from the OEM rqd. I think the FCOM even explicitly states in some section somewhere that the procedures a
68 zeke: Simple, AFM limits are derived from regulatory limits like FAR 25, the "clean wing" concept is not a regulatory requirement.
69 AirframeAS: I thought it was a FAR. However, but it can be in the airlines operating manual.
70 Fabo: Might be a FAR itself, but it doesnt get you very far (pun intended) in Russia...
71 Mir: 91.527(a): No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a
72 bikerthai: My thought exactly. Someone had also noted that there was a "clean" section on the wing. Could it be that the pilot was concern about ice under the s
73 Pihero: The pilot hadn't been on his own for that decision : the ramp coordinator, the ramp engineers, in all probability the airport coordinator... ...and t
74 XaraB: Blown totally out of proportion; the wing was clean enough at Vr. This is not the crazy cliche Soviet-style gung-ho mentality many of you would like t
75 Flight152: There is no such thing as "clean enough" when it comes to an airfoil at such a critical time. Funny how this "one sized fits all" has lead to the low
76 AirframeAS: We know. Someone asked if it was a FAR if it was a flight operating in the U.S., for example. Thank you for that.
77 Acheron: Are you a comercial pilot? And if you are, have you operated regularly in the same conditions than that of russian pilots and are familiar of what ca
78 tdscanuck: Yes, there is. If the disturbances are thinner than the boundary layer it makes no functional difference to the aerodynamics. This is how CDL's for m
79 kalvado: There is another video of another take-off, same airline, same type. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3j-ysISjJ8 1:17 and 1:47 show something on the wi
80 mandala499: Had that kind of "icing" flying on SK in and out of CPH a few times times! And yes, no deicing either... Are people fussing because it's Aeroflot, an
81 AirlineCritic: I do not necessarily want to argue that wings should always be cleaned. I'm sure it is possible to verify what kind of snow you have on the wings and
82 Starlionblue: Fair point. However this accident would never have happened on an aircraft with engines under the wings.
84 Flight152: Yes. For a regional airline with over 850,000 operations per year in US, Canada and Mexico each year, it's far to say i've delt with similar conditio
85 XaraB: Being a US carrier, you follow the FAA rules, which seem to have a "stricter" policy with regard to wing cleaning than other countries with arctic cl
86 PITingres: That is half the question. The other half is, will applying deicing spray make things better, or worse? It looks like most of the responders here who
Sponsor Message: 
From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 538 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Oct 2007, 294 posts, 
From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 526 posts, 
From France, joined Jan 2005, 3496 posts, 
From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, 
From Peru, joined Apr 2008, 719 posts, 
.
Sponsor Message: 
Printer friendly format
