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Eng Failure/ Shutdown @ Cruise ALT  
User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Looking for a few thoughts on this,

If you are flying in the cruise eg FL390 and you are presnted with a problem on the engine eg low oil pressure. You carry out your checklist and it directs you to carry out a shutdown.

Of course all the required items will happen quite quickly and close to each other but what order of preference would you give to them. Would you take it nice and calm, declare a PAN to ATC and advise them of change of speed/course/alt and when all that is sorted then carry out a shutdown?

What of the case regarding an engine fire in cruise, for the boeing aircraft anyway this requires memory items to be carried out promptly. Of course whilst carrrying out these items both pilots need to be confirming the actions but in this case the flying pilot could become very busy flying the aircraft/talking to ATC as the aircraft will not be able to maintain the present alt and speed when the 2nd engines thrust is taken away but it is still important to try and get the fire out before it causes more damage to the aircraft!

Cheers

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

Not a pilot, but have been around aviation my whole life and my take is this:

1. Fly the aircraft
2. Work the problem
3. Fly the aircraft
4. Communicate with those that need to know
5. Fly the aircraft

My point being, that modern aircraft are designed with survivability in mind. The pilot(s) must continue to fly the aircraft while they work through the various issues involved with an engine shut-down and/or fire.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Shutdown the engine, declare the emergency to ATC, then figure things out from there. I can see advising ATC first if you're making a precautionary diversion and then later you figure out that you have to shut the engine down, but if the checklist directs you to a shutdown right away, complete the checklist first. Too easy to get distracted with all the stuff that ATC might want you to do, and then what might be a small engine problem might develop into a larger one.

Of course, there's no reason that you can't advise ATC while you're securing the engine. That's why there's two people in the cockpit.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

[Of course, there's no reason that you can't advise ATC while you're securing the engine. That's why there's two people in the cockpit

[Edited 2012-05-13 13:55:44]

[Edited 2012-05-13 13:56:14]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking in regards to securing the engine, that at that high alt you are going to need to start coming down. My thoughts were working out best speed (for 1 eng) and max alt and start down towards there after speaking to ATC and when that is all done, go through checklist. Of course I'm thinking that you do not want to delay shutting the engine down either as potential damage is bieng done.


[Edited 2012-05-13 13:56:49]

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3471 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

Not a pilot, but have been around aviation my whole life and my take is this:

1. Fly the aircraft
2. Work the problem
3. Fly the aircraft
4. Communicate with those that need to know
5. Fly the aircraft

I think the axiom you are searching for is: AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE. That is the priority order for ANY situation encountered while operating an aircraft.

CAN you do them in a different order? Sure, but when all else is falling apart around you.... AVIATE, NAVIGATE (and then) COMMUNICATE.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3747 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

The communicate part is of relatively minimal importance to the others.

Carry on the memory items. If you're too high and speed is bleeding too fast, initiate a descent immediately while veering to the side of the airway. With today's RNAV, all you litterally need is 100 yards off the centerline to be safe (but you'll want a couple of miles)...

That's where it pays to always be aware of the MRAs and MEAs en route.

Then squawk emergency and call someone when you have time to sort out the pleasantries.

It's more exciting on a twin. In a quad, you hardly need to put your cup of tea down.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

francoflier is right and I'll add that as a rule it won't be that hurried. Shutdown the eng, (with the checklist) the FMS will give you eng out drift down speed and alt so as the speed slows to drift down you can tell ATC your problem and do as he asks. As francoflier said if terrain isn't an issue you might just continue or divert with an offset track.

User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3622 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
you can tell ATC your problem and do as he asks

I think all of us are going in the same direction...my edit to your idea is that with an engine out, the steps are more like 'you can tell ATC your problem and let them know what you are about to do', as the first thing they are likely going to do is ask you "state your intentions'. (Of course, if you don't have any ideas, they will provide some as soon as requested...like where is the nearest airport, what way to turn to miss that mountain, or whatever they might know that you don't).

Even in a B52 a blown engine is going to be treated seriously since history shows a lost engine may well be only a symptom of a bigger issue so they no longer know what state you are in, or what you are capable of. They are also going to presume that you actually have better things to do with your time than get into a gab fest about options, so just asking you your intentions solves a lot of the 'unable to comply' replies.
(Recall the old joke about the F16 being asked to go around because a B52 was on the dreaded 7 engine approach),

May they all keep turning (especially mine, since there is only one of them!).



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

I was assuming continuing to dest. Of course if that's not an option you say what you need to do. correct

User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

A question similar to above: I've been watching some of these TP A320-series engine shutdown videos and (where my question comes into play...) it seems like it takes some time to shut the engine down.

Now, does it usually take this long (if thats even long) or is the videos just designed to show what to do and not necessarily at that speed?

I just don't know but would like some real world practicality...

Here's an example...you can fast forward as needed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STmWeLTEy3s
Engine failure at approx 1:10

Cool videos btw!



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 9):
I just don't know but would like some real world practicality...

When I've done planned engine shutdowns we "fake it" to the crew by telling them that a particular EICAS message has appeared (typically "ENG OIL PRESS L or R") and making them run the checklist, providing the appropriate inputs at the right time to simulate a dying engine. Granted, this is all premeditated so the crew knows to expect an engine to "die" at some point but they don't know what the failure is going to be or what checklist they're going to have to pull so it's reasonably representative.

It's a pretty sedate procedure for a planned shutdown; it's not particularly rushed and the driftdown is typically so slow (you usually shed speed first and hold altitude) that you're not really crunched to notify ATC. You can also request a block altitude (in a real engine failure you'll almost certainly get it) which relieves you of a lot of later communication.

Fire is different; there are memory items you need to do quickly or the problem may get much worse.

In all cases, take care of the airplane first, take avoidance procedures if you don't have time/bandwidth to talk to ATC, then deal with ATC when the airplane situation is stabilized.

Tom.


User currently offlinesanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

True to fly the aircraft first. However doing the initial drill quickly after a failure, most will advise ATC (as per S.O.P's) as the aircraft simply will not stay at altitude and will drift down on single engine to a max single engine ceiling. ATC will need to know in advance before the drift down begins, however if you are at cruising speed, you should have sufficient time to allow aircraft to slow down to optimum speed before descending.


Will Fly For Food!
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Where I fly on the busy US east coast I'd inform ATC as soon as possible that I would be needing a descent. Speed will bleed off relatively quickly at higher altitude and I'd just as soon start going down at a gentle rate as quickly as possible.

But flying the airplane has priority of course.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineDufo From Slovenia, joined May 1999, 798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3104 times:

When we lost engine oil due to sump seal failure, we did the checklist, shut down the engine, called mayday and started descent towards destination - which was actually the nearest suitable airport 15 minutes away. Not really dramatic but you do get that shaky voice when you declare your first real mayday.


I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

The response differs somewhat depending on whether you are in a 2, 3, or 4 engine aircraft.

Priority one in any case will be to apply rudder to compensate for asymmetrical thrust (unless you lose the center engine in a three-engined aircraft), then trim the airplane for stable flight. Once the nature of the malfunction is identified, the pilot flying should state something to the effect of "Engine Failure/Fire/Serve Damage Checklist, I have the radios", at which point the pilot monitoring will begin carrying out memory items (if applicable) and the abnormal checklist for the situation.

Next the pilot flying will begin to decelerate to the driftdown speed. While this is happening they might declare a pan-pan to air traffic control if they're in a 3 or 4 engined craft or probably a mayday in a 2 engined craft. If they are in an area of high terrain, they might need to begin a 180 degree turn-back, or navigate along another escape route, depending on their location along the route. ATC will need to be advised of the altitude and heading change as soon as practical. Typically this will all be done by the pilot flying in coordination with the rest of the crew of course.

When the airplane has decelerated to its driftdown speed, the pilot flying will begin descending to a lower altitude, one at which remaining thrust is sufficient to maintain level flight. For some twins this might be quite low, 15,000ft or less. For the 4 engined aircraft I currently fly, the plane will maintain an altitude in the high 20's to mid 30's at most weights with 1 engine inoperative.

Boeing makes the performance considerations easy with the "ENG OUT" function of the FMCs on the VNAV pages. The pilot flying would simply set a lower altitude on the mode control panel and select the "ENG OUT" function on the FMC, then select "execute" to allow the airplane to descend at engine out long range cruise (after ATC clearance has been received of course) to the engine out max altitude.

Next, a twin will begin immediately searching for the nearest suitable airport to land at, point in time, and will divert there without delay. A plane with more engines *should*   (cough, speedbird, cough) also divert unless they're already very close to the destination, however the situation is less urgent and continuing a bit to an airport with adequate facilities and perhaps existing company operations can be considered. The exception to this is, as always, if a fire hasn't been or cannot be extinguished. In this case the airplane will be flown to the nearest suitable airport at maximum speed and ditching might even be considered.

In 10 years and 7000 hours of flying I've only experienced a single engine failure, at 500 ft immediately after takeoff in an EMB-135 about 6 years ago. I was an F/O at the time; I simply flew the plane while the captain notified ATC, ran the checklists, and briefed the cabin. We were on the ground no more than 10 minutes later.

I hope this helps.


User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

There really is no one answer to this question. I've had one shutdown in 5 years. It happened above 10,000 feet on climb out. We diverted to the nearest large airport and it was a very long 20 minutes. Like KAUS, I was the FO and flying. The captain ran the checklist, notified ATC, notified the cabin, and ran all the relevant checklists. I flew the airplane. I think I talked on the radios twice while he was talking to the FAs and making a PA announcement. The aircraft had no problem maintaining altitude and after being trimmed was just like the sim only everything happened in slow motion. We took our time, made sure everything was good to go, and did a normal approach to landing.


DMI
User currently offlineswiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
. Would you take it nice and calm, declare a PAN to ATC and advise them of change of speed/course/alt and when all that is sorted then carry out a shutdown?

Once the Phase 1 & Phase 2 actions have been completed we use "SELFDR"

S-ecure the dead engine
E-lectrical loading - consider
L-SALT - can you maintain above with one inop?
F-uel - cross feed required?
D-ivert?
R-adio call


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