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Flight Crew On O2 In Normal Ops  
User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7016 times:
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Does it still happen in airlines were if the other crew member needs to leave the Flight Deck for whatever reason the other crew member will don the O2 Mask if they are above FL250 just in case something happens?

I was told and again I do not know if it was true but on Concorde, because of the high levels they operated that one crew member would always have a mask around his neck just in case. I have watched a Concorde Cockpit DVD and did not see this at all.

Any ideas?

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6984 times:

smartt1982

...I was told and again I do not know if it was true but on Concorde, because of the high levels they operated that one crew member would always have a mask around his neck just in case...

It wasn't true.


...I have watched a Concorde Cockpit DVD and did not see this at all...

I'm not surprised - it wasn't required and didn't happen!  


Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Does it still happen in airlines were if the other crew member needs to leave the Flight Deck for whatever reason the other crew member will don the O2 Mask if they are above FL250 just in case something happens?

This used to be the law in Canada. It is no longer required.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

It's true, above FL250 one pilot is supposed to don their O2 mask if the other pilot leaves the flight deck for any reason. Also, above FL410 one pilot is supposed to don their O2 mask and wear it at all times the aircraft is that high. That would explain why concorde pilots always had one guy on O2....they typically cruised well above FL410.

Concorde retired before I even started flying professionally, so I can't speak to whether or not they were exempt from these requirements.

The above apply to the FAA certificated carriers I've worked for; obviously, rules may be different elsewhere.

[Edited 2012-06-14 23:24:32]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

If there is a cabin crew in the flight deck,when a flt crew is out of the flight deck,does the 2nd flying member need to be wearing the O2 mask or have quick access to it.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6826 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):

If there is a cabin crew in the flight deck,when a flt crew is out of the flight deck,does the 2nd flying member need to be wearing the O2 mask or have quick access to it.

They are still required to don(wear) the O2 mask even if a cabin crewmember is accompanying them on the flight deck.

The thought process behind the rule is that if the one pilot on the flight deck does not don his mask quickly enough during a rapid depressurization, the flight may be doomed because the remaining pilot(s) are now locked out of the flight deck or stuck in a place in the cabin where they are connected to O2.


User currently offlinegot2fly From UK - Wales, joined Apr 2011, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6784 times:

We have no requirement to don O2 masks at my carrier. If one pilot needs to leave the flight deck during the flight the other just makes sure their seatbelt is fastened and if comms are on loud speaker they put their headset back on.

User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6780 times:
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Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 3):

This is were I came across it, it was mentioned in the performance manual when it talked about the min amount of O2 for dispatch and the allowances for when this happened.

Is this still in the FAA Regs, I cannot seem to find it in EU OPs or CS25

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
They are still required to don(wear) the O2 mask even if a cabin crewmember is accompanying them on the flight deck.

Would this still be the case if the cabin crew had been trained in the use of the Flight Deck O2? Is that not the reason that airlines have a cabin crew sit up front when a pilot has to step out? I guss it would cover both security as well as this safety issue with O2.


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

KAUSpilot

...That would explain why concorde pilots always had one guy on O2....

They did not.

As posted earlier, there was no such requirement on Concorde.

Those who operate under FAA regulations should be careful, when answering questions, not to inadvertently imply that FAA regulations apply to all aircraft and carriers, especially when the original poster is from the UK not the USA.

Many carriers operate under other regulatory bodies, with different requirements in many areas, and the O2 regulations are a good example of the sort of differences that exist.

Individual airlines are free to impose extra requirements should they wish, but under EU-OPS, provided a quick access mask is available, there is no requirement to don an O2 mask just because another pilot is leaving the flight deck, and neither is there an EU-OPS requirement for a cabin crew member to come to the flight deck whilst this happens.

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineThrottleHold From South Africa, joined Jul 2006, 648 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 6658 times:

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 3):

It's true, above FL250 one pilot is supposed to don their O2 mask if the other pilot leaves the flight deck for any reason.

Only if a quick donning type O2 mask is not available.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 11):
Many apologies for the multiple posting...I can't edit or remove them.

While I am certain it was in error, the multiple posting did hammer home a point I often have to make;

And that is, each governing body has different rules, and what applies to FAA, may not apply to other countries, regardless of where they fly.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6520 times:

There are a couple of very high airports. I wonder if landing in La Paz, Bolivia, the pilots have to be on oxygen. Here's a picture just before landing, still in air, cabin altitude being at almost four kilometers:



User currently onlineTupolevTu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2174 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6508 times:

Quoting got2fly (Reply 6):
We have no requirement to don O2 masks at my carrier. If one pilot needs to leave the flight deck during the flight the other just makes sure their seatbelt is fastened and if comms are on loud speaker they put their headset back on.

I suspect we work for the same airline  

In the UK, there is no requirement for the remaining pilot to wear an oxygen mask when the other is outside the flight deck, nor is a member of the cabin crew required to be in the flight deck when there is only one pilot in there. As for this...

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 5):
The thought process behind the rule is that if the one pilot on the flight deck does not don his mask quickly enough during a rapid depressurization, the flight may be doomed because the remaining pilot(s) are now locked out of the flight deck or stuck in a place in the cabin where they are connected to O2.

...in the UK, if the other pilot is locked out of the flight deck there are procedures in place to re-gain access (even if the pilot flying is incapacitated). They won't be "stuck" in a place in the cabin where there is oxygen, portable oxygen bottles are available for moving around the cabin.

In some cases one pilot will have to wear an oxygen mask for the cruise if it's above FL4something. I remember seeing a video with a captain of a global express (who is/was a member on the site?) explaining "coffin corner" (IIRC) at FL510, and the FO was on oxygen the whole time. Correct any of that if it's wrong but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing that video!

Actually here's the video: http://youtu.be/sQXJdacySRg



Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Only if a quick donning type O2 mask is not available.

We are still required to put the mask on if the other pilot leaves his/her seat.


User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6463 times:
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Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
We are still required to put the mask on if the other pilot leaves his/her seat

So this is an FAA reg?

Do guys/girls actually do this i.e. is it sticly adhered to or not?


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 13):
is it sticly adhered to or not?

Am I getting a check ride??


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 8):
Those who operate under FAA regulations should be careful, when answering questions, not to inadvertently imply that FAA regulations apply to all aircraft and carriers, especially when the original poster is from the UK not the USA.

Did you not see the disclaimer I put in my message? I explicitly said I don't know the rules for Concorde. Excuse me for trying to answer the rest of the question. Quite rude.


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6384 times:

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Only if a quick donning type O2 mask is not available.

Not true for the airlines I have worked for.

Quoting smartt1982 (Reply 7):
Would this still be the case if the cabin crew had been trained in the use of the Flight Deck O2? Is that not the reason that airlines have a cabin crew sit up front when a pilot has to step out? I guss it would cover both security as well as this safety issue with O2.

It does not matter how the flight attendants have been trained.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6327 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
And that is, each governing body has different rules, and what applies to FAA, may not apply to other countries, regardless of where they fly.

Very true.....Differences exist.....

If Concorde is flying at Supersonic speed & there is a depressurization in the aft,shouldn't donning an O2 mask by crew at this phase of flight help.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

KAUSpilot

...I explicitly said I don't know the rules for Concorde. Excuse me for trying to answer the rest of the question. Quite rude...

In my first comment I was trying (politely) to point out that sometimes on this forum posters (not just you) respond to general technical questions from a purely USA/FAA point of view, which can sometimes mislead questioners who live in other parts of the world.

I included the word inadvertently in my post to make it clear I wasn't suggesting this was done deliberately or carelessly, but I did wonder whether you had noticed that the original poster came from the UK.

I also commented on your erroneous remark:

...That would explain why concorde pilots always had one guy on O2...

I was a little surprised that a professional pilot - who by their own admission has no experience of the Concorde operation or knowledge of the CAA regime she operated under - would feel able to post such a misleading remark on a topic they know little about, so I (again) made a comment that no such 02 mask procedure existed.

It is a matter of regret that you felt my comments were rude - I assure you that was not my intention - but I see nothing rude in either of them.

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 19):

From what I recall reading on here, you actually flew that airplane, right?



hit it and quit it
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6002 times:

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Only if a quick donning type O2 mask is not available.

All commercial aircraft would be using Quick donning type masks....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineavioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

In case you werern't confused enough:

In the US

§ 121.333 Supplemental oxygen for emergency descent and for first aid; turbine engine powered airplanes with pressurized cabins.
(a) General. When operating a turbine engine powered airplane with a pressurized cabin, the certificate holder shall furnish oxygen and dispensing equipment to comply with paragraphs (b) through (e) of this section in the event of cabin pressurization failure.

(b) Crewmembers. When operating at flight altitudes above 10,000 feet, the certificate holder shall supply enough oxygen to comply with §121.329, but not less than a two-hour supply for each flight crewmember on flight deck duty. The required two hours supply is that quantity of oxygen necessary for a constant rate of descent from the airplane's maximum certificated operating altitude to 10,000 feet in ten minutes and followed by 110 minutes at 10,000 feet. The oxygen required in the event of cabin pressurization failure by §121.337 may be included in determining the supply required for flight crewmembers on flight deck duty.

(c) Use of oxygen masks by flight crewmembers. (1) When operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, each flight crewmember on flight deck duty must be provided with an oxygen mask so designed that it can be rapidly placed on his face from its ready position, properly secured, sealed, and supplying oxygen upon demand; and so designed that after being placed on the face it does not prevent immediate communication between the flight crewmember and other crewmembers over the airplane intercommunication system. When it is not being used at flight altitudes above flight level 250, the oxygen mask must be kept in condition for ready use and located so as to be within the immediate reach of the flight crewmember while at his duty station.

(2) When operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, one pilot at the controls of the airplane shall at all times wear and use an oxygen mask secured, sealed, and supplying oxygen, in accordance with the following:

(i) The one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask at or below the following flight levels if each flight crewmember on flight deck duty has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that the certificate holder has shown can be placed on the face from its ready position, properly secured, sealed, and supplying oxygen upon demand, with one hand and within five seconds:

(A) For airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of more than 30 seats, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds, at or below flight level 410.

(B) For airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of less than 31 seats, excluding any required crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, at or below flight level 350.

(ii) Whenever a quick-donning type of oxygen mask is to be used under this section, the certificate holder shall also show that the mask can be put on without disturbing eye glasses and without delaying the flight crewmember from proceeding with his assigned emergency duties. The oxygen mask after being put on must not prevent immediate communication between the flight crewmember and other crewmembers over the airplane intercommunication system.

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (c)(2) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave his station at the controls of the airplane when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use his oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to his duty station.

(4) Before the takeoff of a flight, each flight crewmember shall personally preflight his oxygen equipment to insure that the oxygen mask is functioning, fitted properly, and connected to appropriate supply terminals, and that the oxygen supply and pressure are adequate for use.



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4933 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Reply 14):
So this is an FAA reg?

Yep

Quoting smartt1982 (Reply 14):
Do guys/girls actually do this i.e. is it sticly adhered to or not?

I do. It's a good wake up.



DMI
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4927 times:

What about the FA in the Flight deck with the single pilot while the 2nd pilot is out of the cockpit....Will the mask be donned by both.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
What about the FA in the Flight deck with the single pilot while the 2nd pilot is out of the cockpit....Will the mask be donned by both.


For airlines that do that, no, normally the F/A does not wear an O2 mask. (Not every airline has an F/A in the cockpit when the pilot is alone.)

Quoting smartt1982 (Reply 14):
Do guys/girls actually do this i.e. is it sticly adhered to or not?


When it was required, we always did it. It was a rule that "made sense", you are alone in the cockpit, and if there is a rapid depressurization, its one less thing to worry about.

Seriously, I never really understood why that rule no longer existed.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
(Not every airline has an F/A in the cockpit when the pilot is alone.)

Which regulatory are you reffering to.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 26):
Which regulatory are you reffering to.....


I wasn't referring to any. Just stating that not every country's regulations require that a F/A be in the cockpit, when a pilot is alone. For example, in Canada, CARs so not require it.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):

I wasn't referring to any. Just stating that not every country's regulations require that a F/A be in the cockpit, when a pilot is alone. For example, in Canada, CARs so not require it.

The requirement was for a safety reason.Any idea why Canada regulatory does not see its need.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
The requirement was for a safety reason.Any idea why Canada regulatory does not see its need.

Safety, and security.

I agree with Transport Canada that the need no longer exists, and unfortunately as it goes into security issues I can not discuss them publicly. I can only say that not every airline has this exemption, and certain requirements must be met.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
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