lexkid12300 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6259 times:
Hi everyone,
I went plane spotting at my local airport (PVD) tonight to watch planes land and it got me thinking about something. Since our airport is so small (relatively speaking) we only have 3 Delta flights (excluding Pinnacle, etc) to and from ATL. The schedule is:
PVD-ATL 6:00am - 8:30am with MD90
PVD-ATL 11:39am - 2:15pm with MD88
PVD-ATL 5:40pm - 8:20pm with MD88
ATL-PVD 8:27am - 10:59am with MD88
ATL-PVD 2:32pm - 4:59pm with MD88
ATL-PVD 8:30pm - 11:06pm with MD90
Usually all of these flights are operated with the MD88, but for some reason this month the evening ATL-PVD flight and the morning PVD-ATL is operated with an MD90. So, the MD90 lands at PVD around 11pm and takes off the following morning at 6am.
So my question is this:
Do the same pilots that take the 8:30-11:06pm flight from ATL-PVD fly the MD90 back to ATL the following morning at 6:00am? By the time they make it off of the plane, and get into a hotel, it doesn't leave much time to get back to the airport the following morning! And tonight the night flight was late! The MD90 arrived here at PVD at 11:45pm.
I would assume for similar flights at other airports, the crews that land the MD90 at night would take a flight the following day in the afternoon, but there are no MD90 flights out of PVD except for the 6am flight.
How do you guys think it works here at PVD? Are the pilots that landed here in PVD at 11:45pm going to have to fly the MD90 back to ATL at 6am? That's NOT enough sleep! If not, who will be flying the MD90 out in the am? Did Delta fly a crew here this afternoon or something? And if so, the crew that got the MD90 here tonight, do they have to wait until the following, following, day to fly the MD90 out? Or will they be shuttled somewhere else?
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6297 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6141 times:
The Md-88 and 90 will have the same pilots. Very few difference in the planes, it's the same type rating. So the pilots who came in at 5pm the evening before. My question is how the rest of the flights would go? What flight does either the 11pm arrival pilots fly or the 2pm pilots fly.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
lexkid12300 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6085 times:
Ah that makes sense!! Another question; are the pilots who fly the MD88/90 rated on any other A/C for Delta? Maybe the DC9? I know the instrumentation for the DC9 is a LOT different than on the MD88/90... And when Delta gets the 717, do you think the MD88/90 pilots will be able to get certified on the 717?
Dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2365 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6071 times:
They can be rated on every plane in the fleet. Once you get a rating it is yours. They only hold a bid spot on one type at a time. The DC9 and the MD88/90 are different bid lines. The 717 will most likely be another bid line.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 5, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6037 times:
Little thing in this industry called dead-heading
But each rotation may be different. Tomorrow's flights for example (ATL-PVD-ATL)
Now, looking at the routing you would think the flight deck crew would do all the turns but that's not always the case. On a recent flight of mine ATL-RDU I got into RDU after 3pm and the flight deck crew was done for the day. The crew doing the turn to take the a/c back to ATL in only 40 minutes was at the gate and they were just starting their day so it really depends. Then, you may have a DTW based crew doing one of the legs so they may dead-head on one of the DCI flights from DTW and take the a/c down. Then there's the possibility that the crew doing the early AM flight the next day would deadhead on say DL 1112 then overnight and do DL 1263 the next morning. Every day (or every other day in this case) there may be a different scenario as to how the flights will be staffed. It all comes down to being very efficient with your resources (cockpit and cabin crew).
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 890 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6027 times:
And one more possibility, called a CDO - continuous duty overnight, or stand-up overnights or whatever the local vernacular term it is at your particular airline.
The crew that flies the last MD-90 flight into PVD also flies to first flight out. - I doubt Delta does this, but there are some airlines that schedule in this manner.
Usually a hotel room is provided for the crew to stay for the precious few hours - it is not a legal rest period and the crew is considered to be on duty the entire time in PVD. Typically the schedule might be: the crew duties on for the flight to the outstation, flies to the outstation, stays on duty at the outstation (catch a 3-4 hour nap), flies back to the hub, and once back at the hub the crew duties off and is done for the rest of the day.
Using your flight schedule:
Your crew would duty on in ATL at 7:45pm, fly to PVD, go to the hotel for 5 hours, fly back to ATL, and then duty off at 8:45am. For a total duty time of 13 hours, which would be legal assignment.
The schedule is legal under current FARs, whether that type of scheduling is contractually allowed, it depends on the pilot contract. Again, I doubt Delta schedules in this manner.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5604 times:
lexkid12300,
OK, here's how it works:
The flight crew that arrives into Providence on the first flight of the day from Atlanta at 10:59 a.m. stays with the aircraft and returns to Atlanta at 11:39 a.m. That is called a "turn," or more specifically for this particular route, a "Providence turn."
The flight crew that arrives on the second flight of the day from Atlanta at 4:59 p.m. remains overnight in Providence and works the 6:00 a.m. departure the next morning. That is called, of course, a layover. In this case, it seems as though the layover is around 11 and a half hours.
The flight crew that arrives on the last flight of the day from Atlanta at 11:06 p.m. also lays over in Providence and works the 5:40 p.m. departure to Atlanta the next day. This layover seems to be around 17 hours.
It doesn't matter in this case whether the aircraft is an MD-88 or MD-90--the qualification is the same for both aircraft and crews work both type of aircraft interchangeably.
The DC-9 is a different story. At Delta, the DC-9 is a completely different qualification, it is scheduled differently than the MD-88/MD-90 fleet and the DC-9 and MD-88/MD-90 pilots do not fly the other type of aircraft at all. Completely separate training programs.
If Delta receives Boeing 717 aircraft, that will also be a different qualification and DC-9, 717, and MD-88/MD-90 crews will not interchange aircraft.
Keep in mind there is a difference between being "type-rated" on a particular aircraft and being "qualified" on a particular aircraft. All pilots who fly the MD-88 and MD-90 have a "DC-9 type rating" on their pilot certificates, but individual companies may restrict the type of aircraft those pilots are actually qualified to fly. At Delta, the company prefers to keep the DC-9 and MD-88/MD-90 qualifications separate.
It was the same when TWA and Northwest were in business--the DC-9 pilots were not qualified to fly the MD-80s and vice versa.
lexkid12300 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5176 times:
e38, how do you know all of that!!?? That's great information! It makes a lot of sense now. For some reason i never thought that the MD88 and 90 would be able to be flown by the same pilots, but it makes sense that they would be considering the cockpits are similar!
Another question: It appears that the pilots of the MD88 receive different pay rates than those flying the MD90, but if the same pilots fly both, how does their pay work?
Would the pilots be receiving pay increases whenever they fly the MD90? From the site above it indicates the difference between the MD88 and MD90 in terms of pay is only $3 more per hour, but do pilots get better money per hour when they're flying on the MD90 vs the MD80?
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5117 times:
Quoting lexkid12300 (Reply 9): Another question: It appears that the pilots of the MD88 receive different pay rates than those flying the MD90, but if the same pilots fly both, how does their pay work?
As explained by someone else to me just this week, they will simply recieve a different rate for the hours they are on the 90/88.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4904 times:
Chris with reference to the variation in pay rates between the MD-88 and MD-90, what you and FlyASAGuy2005 said is correct--the pilots are simply paid at the rate applicable to the type of aircraft they have flown and it is tracked by "ship number."
By the way, effective today, July 1, 2012, with the implementation of the new pilot contract at Delta, the pay rate for the MD-88 and MD-90 will be the same.
lexkid12300 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4621 times:
Well i guess that solves the issue of pay difference between MD88 and MD90! Do you know if the pay for DC9 pilots has increased?
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6519 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4602 times:
Quoting lexkid12300 (Reply 12): Well i guess that solves the issue of pay difference between MD88 and MD90! Do you know if the pay for DC9 pilots has increased?
Everyone got a rise. How much for each category I don't know.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2069 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4596 times:
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4114 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13), "Everyone got a rise. How much for each category I don't know."
I think you meant a raise.
Effective with the new contract (July 1, 2012), every pilot at Delta got an increase of basic salary of approximately 4.0 percent (not just the MD-88/MD-90 pilots, Chris).
However, there were many other changes to the contract--not just pay--to include compensation for vacation days, training, scope issues. These are just a few changes among many, many others.
777ord From United States of America, joined May 2010, 355 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3604 times:
Quoting lexkid12300 (Reply 3): Ah that makes sense!! Another question; are the pilots who fly the MD88/90 rated on any other A/C for Delta? Maybe the DC9? I know the instrumentation for the DC9 is a LOT different than on the MD88/90... And when Delta gets the 717, do you think the MD88/90 pilots will be able to get certified on the 717?
Not really any different than "UA" and the 752/753/752 and 764 ops. It's all considered the same type certificate and training accordingly.
and, some airlines do still do the 'stand up over nights'. But, they have become quite hard to get done since most of those crews time out in the middle of the morning. Not much use to turning them. Them being reserves that is.
Delta pilot category
744
777-both ER and LR
330-both 200 and 300
765-767-400ER
7ER-757/767 757-200,200ER(or ETOPS for non-Delta folk)300 767-300/300ER international and domestic
767-757-200,200ER(or ETOPS for non-Delta folk)300 767-300/300ER Domestic and some international flying. IIRC its south to the equator but I'm not 100% on that.
73N- 737-700/800/900ER*
320- A319/A320
M89- MD88 and MD90 flying
DC9- DC9-30/40/50. Only 50s are in the fleet though.
717
*900ER will have a higher pay rate than the 700/800.
Also Delta is slowly phasing out the 767 cat. I am fairly sure ATL is the only base left with them. Nearly every AE they draw it down a little.
Ok so with that covered, here are the bases
ATL:
777
330
765
7ER
767
73N
320
M89
DC9
NYC:
765
7ER
73N
320
M89
DTW:
744
777
330
7ER
320
DC9
MSP:
7ER
320
M89
CVG:
7ER(I think)
M89
SLC:
7ER
73N
320
LAX:
7ER
73N
SEA:
330
7ER
Note. The first 717 base(s) will be ATL and/or DTW. also very likely that DTW ends up with a 73N bases soon vs later.
Ok I think I got everything. may have missed something. (note SLC had a M89 base, I think its gone not sure. Also not sure if NYC 777 is gone or not. It has closed and re-opend at least 2 times.)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (10 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3234 times:
DeltaL1011man, the information your provided in your reply (Reply 17) is all correct with one small correction:
CVG base is 73N and M88, not 7ER and M88.
(The MD-88 and MD-90 category is officially coded M88 at Delta Air Lines).
Also, you are correct, the SLC base does not have the M88 category anymore; the flying time associated with SLC M88 was transferred to MSP (at the same time the 320 category opened in SLC) and the 777 category is only based in ATL and DTW--not NYC anymore as you stated.
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3095 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19), "Does the crew deadhead from out of base or are they rotated through CDG?"
Andrew, normally deadhead to CVG from out of base, and the trip is typically rotated among crews from the other 7ER bases. During July and August, the trip is being flown by ATL, LAX, and NYC based crews.
The trips vary between approximately five days (one roundtrip CVG-CDG) to eleven days (three roundtrips CVG-CDG).
So a typical trip might be:
Day 1: deadhead LAX, ATL, or LGA to CVG
Day 2: CVG to CDG
Day 4: CDG to CVG
Day 5: deadhead CVG back to base.
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3003 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21), " I'm guessing the PIT-CDG flight is handled the same way."
Andrew, exactly; and the PHL - CDG flight as well. For July, both these roundtrips (PIT-CDG-PIT and PHL-CDG-PHL) are flown by ATL based 7ER crews with deadheads to and from ATL on the first and last days of the trip.
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2977 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 23), "It seems like CVG-CDG is done a lot by LAX 7ER"
DeltaL1011man, well, not necessarily.
The trip generally rotates among all the 7ER bases.
e38
25 apodino: What probably happens at Delta is they will have two crews overnighting in PVD. Based on what you have told me I would guess that the 11 am arrival is
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