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747-8 Wing Reloft / A380 Wing Twist  
User currently offlineFlyingCello From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 155 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

The 747-8 seems to have the same wing structure as the 744, but lots of mentions have been made of it having been 'relofted'. What exactly was changed? I know that flaps and leading edge devices were modified, but this seems to be something more fundamental...it appears to be a reprofiling of the entire wing...is that correct? Is the 747-8 now supercritcal? Does it mean that the wing cross section is now signficantly different, albeit on the old structure.

In a similar vein, 2013 A380s are going to be delivered with an additional 1.5 degrees twist in the wing...is this the entire wing being given a slightly higher angle of attack? Or is the wing root remaining the same, with this additional twist being introduced outboard? A higher AoA would seem like a massive engineering change...

Any B or A structural guys out there who can shed any light?

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9102 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6284 times:

747-8 reloft refers to the change in airfoil section to a modern supercritical section, the platform of the clean wing remains essentially the same, the span wise engine location is the same.

A380 the wing twist changes reduces the angle of attack of the wing tip by 1.5 degrees. The wing root remains the same, they have not stated over what span the twist will be incorporated. This is to reduce drag.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

Quoting FlyingCello (Thread starter):
The 747-8 seems to have the same wing structure as the 744, but lots of mentions have been made of it having been 'relofted'. What exactly was changed?

Airfoil, twist, dihedral, leading & trailing edge all changed. Basic planform and structural arrangement remained the same. Good paper on this here:
http://www.icas-proceedings.net/ICAS2008/PAPERS/073.PDF

Quoting FlyingCello (Thread starter):
A higher AoA would seem like a massive engineering change...

If you alter the wing incidence angle you don't change the AoA, you change the pitch attitude (the wing AoA remains essentially the same). In this case, as zeke described, they're just altering the twist. The change in attitude will be almost invisible.

Tom.


User currently offlineFlyingCello From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Thanks guys,

That is a good paper...seen it only this week.

So on the 747-8, the structure remains the same, but I assume the reprofiling means that the ribs have all been modified?

For the A380, even twisting the outer section of the wing must be a substantial engineering change...


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 3):
So on the 747-8, the structure remains the same, but I assume the reprofiling means that the ribs have all been modified?

Yep. The spars, stringers, and skins are also all regauged. The spars may have changed shape slightly to take the new loft but I'm not sure about that.

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 3):
For the A380, even twisting the outer section of the wing must be a substantial engineering change...

Yes. Wing tooling is among the largest, most difficult, most immovable in the business. It's not at all trival.

Tom.


User currently offlineFlyingCello From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

Thanks Tom,

It makes you wonder how Airbus got to this point. Did all the early analysis give a slightly 'wrong' result? I'm guessing that operational experience has uncovered that the extra twist is beneficial, but I wonder where the models got the original analysis wrong? Or, is the wing loading up in a different way than expected?

The engineer (electrical) in me is curious!

Sam


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 5):
It makes you wonder how Airbus got to this point. Did all the early analysis give a slightly 'wrong' result?

Almost certainly. Modern analysis tools are amazing but it's still beyond their capability to do a complete, integrated, aerodynamic + structural simulation at full scale fidelity. They get really close (within a few % or so) but to get real numbers you still need to go out and actually fly it.

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 5):
I'm guessing that operational experience has uncovered that the extra twist is beneficial, but I wonder where the models got the original analysis wrong? Or, is the wing loading up in a different way than expected?

They probably didn't get the pressure distribution exactly right. That's a tough iterative problem; the aerodynamic solvers assume a fixed wing position. The structural solvers assume a fixed loading. But the loading alters the position and vice versa. You need to iterate between the two to get "reality". The most likely scenario, to me, is that Airbus got the actual pressure distribution data during flight test and found out that the actual position of the wing in flight wasn't what they though it was, so they altered the jig position so that the in-flight position matches up with what their analysis says is the lowest drag position.

Tom.


User currently offlineAeroweanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5999 times:
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I would speculate that likely scenarios are:

1) Airbus probably desires to increase the maximum take-off gross weight of the A380. In doing so, the root bending moment of the wing will go up. Any easy fix is to increase wing twist to move the wing load back inboard. This was done during the original 747 development.

2) Experience might have shown that the wing torsional flexibility is less than originally calculated during the design phase. This might be tied to the rib cracking issues. To reduce wing bending loads, more twist is an easy fix.


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10031 posts, RR: 96
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5983 times:
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Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Wing tooling is among the largest, most difficult, most immovable in the business. It's not at all trival.

When you look at the way the A380 wing tooling is designed, and how it operates, it's not all that difficult to do a wing twist tweak down the wing.

Rgds


User currently offlineFlyingCello From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

Thanks Tom,

I guess we have access to tools now that allow us to analyse performance to a far greater resolution than before...the A380 already seems pretty efficient as it is, so this additional gain is the cherry on the pie. 30 years ago, we may not even have known that it needed fixed! Expensive change all the same.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5521 times:

Too bad they couldn't have done a 777X style re wing on the 748, that could have taken some serious weight out of that frame?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30989 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5422 times:
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Quoting sweair (Reply 10):
Too bad they couldn't have done a 777X style re wing on the 748, that could have taken some serious weight out of that frame?

The 747-500X and 747-600X would have had the 777's wing.

With the 747-8, Boeing didn't want to change the structural arrangement of the wing: I am guessing so they could use the existing wing tooling and to be able to grandfather the wing under the existing Type Certificate.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

But imagine the current 748 with the wing of the envisioned 777-9X, that would give the 777 a run for its money I would think.

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