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How Are RR Trents Shipped To Boeing?  
User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8375 times:

On the way into work today saw the not so unfamiliar site of an engine on its way up I-405 to Paine Field, got me wondering whats the entire shipment process for a Trent to make it to the Everett Assembly lines? Plane or boat across the Atlantic? What's the port of entry? Are they shipped whole partially disassembled from the RR factory? On the flip-side how about GE and PW shipping their engines to Airbus?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2067 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

These large engines are too expensive to ship by anything other than by air.

Don't know the port of entry, but when Boeing Propulsion was at Boeing Field, the Antonov would deliver the engine there. It may be that they still fly the engine there and then truck them up to Everett via 405.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8288 times:

Quoting seachaz (Thread starter):
Are they shipped whole partially disassembled from the RR factory?

I know that newer GE engines are designed so that the propulsor can be disconnected easily from the core for shipping. Is this also the case with RR engines?


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30561 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8219 times:
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Quoting bikerthai (Reply 1):
Don't know the port of entry, but when Boeing Propulsion was at Boeing Field, the Antonov would deliver the engine there. It may be that they still fly the engine there and then truck them up to Everett via 405.

If they deliver to BFI, to get to I-405 they'd either have to drive south on I-5 to the I-405 interchange and then drive back up, or come across I-90 or SR-520. I would therefore expect them to just drive straight up I-5 to Everett.

I would therefore imagine they are flown to SEA and then via I-405. The GE90 fan casing can be removed to allow transport via 747 freighter:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig Murray



So I am guessing the RR and Pratt engines can also be shipped via 747 freighter.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8140 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

If they deliver to BFI, to get to I-405 they'd either have to drive south on I-5 to the I-405 interchange and then drive back up, or come across I-90 or SR-520. I would therefore expect them to just drive straight up I-5 to Everett.

Why wouldn't they just fly it to Everett? That seems to be an unnecessary step.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8124 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Why wouldn't they just fly it to Everett? That seems to be an unnecessary step.

My question too. I was up there a month ago doing the Boeing tour and they had 4 of them sitting out in front of the 777 assembly line when we started. I neglected to ask. But, it isn't uncommon to see sections occasionally on 405 or I-5.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Why wouldn't they just fly it to Everett?

PAE isn't a normal airport of entry (it is a landing rights airport, which means that you can clear US customs there, but only via prior arrangement with US Customs, and usually an extra fee). You could fly it there, but why not just land at SEA, where you can clear customs on the field, and then truck it the rest of the way?  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8112 times:

Just for clarification I'm not sure what make/model engine I saw today, looked to be of the Trent 1000/GEnx size though. Have also seen some GE-90-110/115b on 405 in the past (hard to miss) and other various engines coming up I-5 from as far south as Portland.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
PAE isn't a normal airport of entry (it is a landing rights airport, which means that you can clear US customs there, but only via prior arrangement with US Customs, and usually an extra fee). You could fly it there, but why not just land at SEA, where you can clear customs on the field, and then truck it the rest of the way?

Why not land at SEA, clear customs, and then fly to PAE? Even if it's a foreign operator, they aren't taking any new cargo aboard for the short domestic leg.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Why not land at SEA, clear customs, and then fly to PAE? Even if it's a foreign operator, they aren't taking any new cargo aboard for the short domestic leg.

Compare the costs per flight hour of a monster like the AN-124 or an IL-76 versus calling the local cartage trucking company sometime...  Get back to me with the results   You're probably paying around $1000 or so just to fire up the engines in the airplane....



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinespeedbird9 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7665 times:

It's not confirmed but according to these images it seems as if they do transport them by air from EMA. (see image remarks)


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Gregory
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Edward Heriot



I would like to see something more detailed though.



Is the customer always right? Michael O'Leary: no the customer is nearly always wrong
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4364 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The GE90 fan casing can be removed to allow transport via 747 freighter:

How is the fan casing transported ?



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7381 times:
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Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The GE90 fan casing can be removed to allow transport via 747 freighter:

How is the fan casing transported ?

Usually on the same 747. Separately both pieces can fit in through the cargo door (with the fan laid flat), it's only too big when assembled.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
Compare the costs per flight hour of a monster like the AN-124 or an IL-76 versus calling the local cartage trucking company sometime...  Get back to me with the results   You're probably paying around $1000 or so just to fire up the engines in the airplane....

Compared to unloading, loading, securing, and driving? Just rolling the thing off the plane has to be worth $1000.


User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2311 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7312 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Compared to unloading, loading, securing, and driving? Just rolling the thing off the plane has to be worth $1000.

You're going to have to unload it from the plane at some point, no matter what...


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8864 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7254 times:

I do not understand why they would not go by ship. I can understand for an AOG situation for them to go by air. For new build aircraft, they have enough advance warning of them to save a lot by sending them by ship.


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

[quote=DocLightning,reply=4]Why wouldn't they just fly it to Everett? That seems to be an unnecessary step.[/quote

Boeing practice has been to build up all engines for both Everett and Renton at the Propulsion Systems Division (PSD).

The bare engine is received from the manufacter, then is equipped at PSD (accessories, cowlings etc) so that they can be installed directly on the Everett and Renton assembly lines. The advantage was that the engine build-up experts were all in one place and could shift easily from one engine type to another as required by rate and production sequencing.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 1):
These large engines are too expensive to ship by anything other than by air.

Not sure what you mean by this?

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I do not understand why they would not go by ship. I can understand for an AOG situation for them to go by air. For new build aircraft, they have enough advance warning of them to save a lot by sending them by ship.

Agreed, except if you went by boat the whole way to the West Coast, it would be mean going via the Panama Canal of course, but this is done all the time for other cargo.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7064 times:

Can't speak about how RRs get to Boeing, but a few months ago I was boarding a KL 74M and I clearly saw two RR engines being loaded into the main deck compartment. They looked to be Trent 700s but that's just a guess based on their size.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2534 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7041 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I do not understand why they would not go by ship. I can understand for an AOG situation for them to go by air. For new build aircraft, they have enough advance warning of them to save a lot by sending them by ship.

I think it has to do with inventory costs. On very high dollar items no company wants to show ownership of the item for a long inventory time frame. A ship journey would be considered an inventory time for the engine company. They want to build the engine and off load it to the customer fast so they get paid.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6940 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I do not understand why they would not go by ship. I can understand for an AOG situation for them to go by air. For new build aircraft, they have enough advance warning of them to save a lot by sending them by ship.

Dalmd88 nailed it:

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 19):
I think it has to do with inventory costs.

Shipping is something like 28-48 times slower than air freight. There's a *huge* cost associated with having that many engines in transport and not actually paid for yet.

Tom.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6910 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
Shipping is something like 28-48 times slower than air freight. There's a *huge* cost associated with having that many engines in transport and not actually paid for yet.

Any idea how many they ship at a time? When I was there last month they had 4 engines in a row sitting on the ramp outside the production floor.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 days ago) and read 6854 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 21):
Any idea how many they ship at a time?

I would hope they're sync'd up to the production rate and shipping in pairs to match the rate that airplanes need them. However, they may be trying to capture some batch savings by putting multiple engines on one freighter...anyone know how many Trent's fit on one air freighter?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 21):
When I was there last month they had 4 engines in a row sitting on the ramp outside the production floor.

I'd expect 2-4 to be there at any one time but that's just a guess...the 737 has a much higher rate so they have more engines in the factory at any one time.

Tom.


User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 911 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Quoting speedbird9 (Reply 10):
It's not confirmed but according to these images it seems as if they do transport them by air from EMA

Engines from SIN are definitely transported by air to Airbus and Boeing. Source: February article in Aviation Week.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2067 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6251 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I would therefore expect them to just drive straight up I-5 to Everett.

Drove both routes many times. 405 have no tunnels (I-5, seattle conventionl).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Why not land at SEA, clear customs, and then fly to PAE? Even if it's a foreign operator, they aren't taking any new cargo aboard for the short domestic leg.

Why pay landing fees at both locations?

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I do not understand why they would not go by ship. I

Just figure a 25 million dollar engine for example. At 3% annual interest, you are paying $2000 each day the engine sits around. For a 30 day journey, you are looking at $60,000 dollars before you figure shipping costs, insurance, etc.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
25 tdscanuck : Real world inventory holding costs (when you roll all the other stuff besides just interest in) are going to be 10+%. You'll spend hundreds of thousa
26 bond007 : Except that when it's on a ship you are paying none of the 'real world inventory holding costs', since it's almost all included as part of the actual
27 Post contains images KELPkid : Tom's point was, though, that the engine manufacturer doesn't get paid until the airframer receives the engine. From the engine manufacturer's point
28 Post contains images bond007 : Agreed, but they are shipping costs, not inventory costs. The cost if keeping inventory is much higher, and includes those same costs. Insurance depe
29 bikerthai : These comment is actually more complicated, I think. The engines are typically purchased separately from the airplane. So I would think, the Engine m
30 zeke : With all those unfinished 787s sitting around PAE, the engines that would have been made to keep up with the production must be sitting around somewh
31 Post contains images bikerthai : I remember in the early 90's with the Boeing Machinist Strike, they had many engines stacked up in the parking lot. The larger one required special p
32 BreninTW : A lot of this discussion has been about the costs and time taken to ship the engines. However, I think there may be another factor: Turbulence vs. rou
33 bond007 : With the huge ships we are talking about here, I cannot imagine this is even the slightest factor. There are no sudden movements on those beasts even
34 tdscanuck : I don't think it's physically possible for a large ship to encounter the type of sharp acceleration peaks a truck or airplane goes through. Even if i
35 Post contains images bikerthai : Will those large engines even fit in a standard container? If not, then the price of shipping goes up. Perhaps they can ship the engines in one of th
36 Mark2fly1034 : Why not have a lot arrive at some airport the same day and send them by train?
37 bikerthai : Production rate for these airplanes do not warrant more than one a day. Even the with the 737, you don't need more than 3-4 a day. If a lot of these
38 Post contains images KELPkid : See this: Freight rail cars in the US have sprung suspensions If the load needs to be protected from damage in transit, rail isn't the best way to go
39 Post contains images bikerthai : Or an air suspended trailer on a flat bed train car. Also, on trucks, there is less chance of some miscreant staking out a rail line to put holes in
40 jetlife2 : The comments about how GE90's can be shipped by air are accurate, they can be split easily and transported by 747/777 freighter. However, this is not
41 Post contains links n92r03 : The OP asked about shipping to Boeing... The video below is to Airbus, but at 2:40 it shows on a truck, truck onto a ferry, then trucked to Airbus. ht
42 DocLightning : If you go by sea, you will need to go through the Panama Canal to get to the Port of Seattle, which is a huge detour. If it's properly secured and ot
43 trex8 : In a previous thread on engine discounts from the OEM it was stated that airlines actually pay full price for the engine to the airframe manufacturer
44 Post contains links Viscount724 : AC had a 77W divert to Fairbanks, Alaska with engine problems on a ICN flight in September 2008. One engine had turbine damage and required an engine
45 mingocr83 : Well...shipping here is fairly simple. Based on the urgency for a lean operation in the Assembly line, the shipping is negotiated with a Air Freight S
46 dlednicer : Small quibble - I-405 southbound went through the Wilburton Tunnel in Bellevue, until the tunnel was removed in August 2008. I've seen semi-tractors
47 HAWK21M : Has to be shipped as QECAs [Quick engine change assemblies].Cant be in modular breaks.
48 Post contains images bikerthai : Well, I guess now we know what will limit the size of the next generation of engines. Not it's efficiency, rather how it will be shipped. bt
49 Starlionblue : This is not actually a new thing in aviation. Rocket stages have been limited by transportation options as well.
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