kenwink From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 5 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3060 times:
KEN
kenwink@aol.com
KEN
kenwink@aol.com
PRACTICE ILS RWY28 (CLASS C AIRPORT): WEATHER VFR; WHILE ON FINAL, REQUESTED LANDING RWY25. ATC RESPONSE WAS, "CONTINUE AND CIRCLE TO LAND RWY25". WAS THIS AN ADEQUATE RESPONSE PHRASEOLOGY???? FOR ME, THE DOGLEG LEFT ON SHORT FINAL OR ANYWHERE ON FINAL WAS NO PROBLEM LANDING "STRAIGHT AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN" RWY25. SHOULD ATC HAVE GIVEN MORE EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS OTHER THAN "CIRCLE TO LAND RWY25". SEEMS TO ME A PILOT MAY HAVE MISCONTRUED THIS CLEARANCE (WITHOUT EXPLICIT MANEUVER INSTRUCTIONS) TO LEVEL OFF AT PATTERN ALTITUDE OR MDA FOR LOC RWY 28 AND POSSIBLY MANEUVER ON HIS OWN AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN A COMPLEX CIRCLING MANEUVER TO RWY25.
RWY 25 IS WITHIN 30 DEGREES OF RWY 28 IF THIS IS MEANINGFUL!!! THANK YOU!!!!
ps--------when this posting appears-----there will be a blurb about macedonian airlines, etc, in greece. disregard that sentence, as my query had to do with an occurance at KROC---------ny!!
CXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3009 times:
Sounds like a training flight.
The response perfectly adequate. An ILS has a tighter circling requirement, 3 degrees instead of the usual 30. But more importantly since the pilot wanted a different runway, it came down to a circling or contact approach. As soon as the pilot breaks off the approach for the circle they have to be visual. Tower will call traffic as appropriate, but it is the pilot that MUST remain vigilant.
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
IAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4738 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2933 times:
Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1): The response perfectly adequate.
IMHO, with all respect I disagree with that phraseology being correct. Paragraph 4-8-6 of 7110.65, provides the phraseology for circling approaches with operational control tower. "Cessna 789 circle to runway to Runway XX", or "circle (direction using eight cardinal compass points) of the airport/runway for a left/right base/downwind to Runway XX".
The word "land" should not be used in a clearance other than a landing clearance. In the OP example, that would not constitute a landing clearance. Phraseology technicality, maybe yet it is proven day in and day out correct phraseology works.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6191 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2307 times:
The phrase sounds like the standard phrase from Microsoft Flight Simulator.
I've been told in the real world while flying VFR to "Circle right to land on Rwy XX, you are cleared to land on Rwy XX" and I've been told "Circle left to prepare for landing on Rwy XX, Request landing clearance when you are lined up and have the runway in sight."
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6210 posts, RR: 74 Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2224 times:
Quoting kenwink (Thread starter): WAS THIS AN ADEQUATE RESPONSE PHRASEOLOGY???? FOR ME, THE DOGLEG LEFT ON SHORT FINAL OR ANYWHERE ON FINAL WAS NO PROBLEM LANDING "
If you're a retired IP/Instrument Examiner, you should know the answer.
Well, it should have been, "continue approach ILS runway 28 circle to land 25".
The dogleg to the left can only be done within the TERPS circling area (2.5NM from runway ends for Cat D).
"anywhere on final", therefore, is NOT OK. If you perform the circling visual maneuver outside the prescribed circling area then you are doing a visual approach instead of a circling approach (treated as visual portion/maneuver under IFR, and visual maneuver portion of an instrument approach procedure, with a circling minima).
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft landing at airports with operational control towers.
b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the runway in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that aligned with the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of the circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required, state the direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left or right base/downwind leg as appropriate.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CIRCLE TO RUNWAY (number),
or
CIRCLE (direction using eight cardinal compass points) OF THE AIRPORT/RUNWAY FOR A LEFT/RIGHT BASE/DOWNWIND TO RUNWAY (number).
NOTE-
Where standard instrument approach procedures (SIAPs) authorize circling approaches, they provide a basic minimum of 300 feet of obstacle clearance at the MDA within the circling area considered. The dimensions of these areas, expressed in distances from the runways, vary for the different approach categories of aircraft. In some cases a SIAP may otherwise restrict circling approach maneuvers.
c. Do not issue clearances, such as “extend downwind leg,” which might cause an aircraft to exceed the circling approach area distance from the runways within which required circling approach obstacle clearance is assured.
Quoting kenwink (Thread starter): THE DOGLEG LEFT ON SHORT FINAL OR ANYWHERE ON FINAL
I think ATC would have expected you to turn right to join an oblique base for 25 within the circling area to maintain obstacle clearance. Turning left off the ILS is like a LDA approach, and would have put you below profile for RWY 25. You stated you were cleared for the ILS RWY 28, I am assuming you were IFR, you could have cancelled IFR and then requested to land RWY 25.
When circling IFR, ATC is expecting you to maneuver the shortest path to the base or downwind leg, as appropriate, considering existing weather conditions. There is no restriction from passing over the airport or other runways. You should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers. This protects you from terrain until you are in a position to land.
IFR rules may seem silly under VFR conditions, the rules however have been written in blood. Look back at accident reports no doubt you will find someone trying to do a similar maneuver in marginal conditions and made contact with terrain.
Why don't you give the tower a call, they will not bite. If you do not know the number, I can PM it to you.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Quoting zeke (Reply 7): IFR rules may seem silly under VFR conditions, the rules however have been written in blood. Look back at accident reports no doubt you will find someone trying to do a similar maneuver in marginal conditions and made contact with terrain.
Oh so correct, I'd guess just about every rule in aviation has been created due to an incident/accident.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
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