joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3215 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10834 times:
Wow, you sound very brave by even thinking about such a project.
The first thing that I thought of when reading this: you are apparently looking for an *airworthy* 747, but you will be using it only as a structure.
The value of an airworthy frame is considerably higher than just the metal scrap value. Not only engines can still be worth good money, but all kinds of components can still have considerable value. Think of all kinds of actuators, valves, pumps, compressors, avionics, etc, etc. And components that are pulled 'fresh' from an airworthy frame are worth even more.
Also, I don't know which country it is, but putting structure on a festival ground, that happened to be an airplane, can (legal-wise) be very different from putting an actual aircraft (as it is airworthy) on the ground. Also, scrapping the airframe from usable parts is very difficult without the right knowledge.
Without having numbers (as I never undertook such a project), I can well imagine that the costs of a already-dismantled airframe and the ground transport costs, can be much lower than buying an airworthy frame
I would try something completely different: approach an Aircraft Scrapping company. For example, there is one at Keble, which have been scrapping several Air France and Corsair 747s. They will know where to find written-off airframes, know how to part them out, have knowledge about ground transportation, etc. I think this is more viable than buying an airworthy frame.
PGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2895 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10446 times:
Where are you planning on flying into, and how are you planning on moving it to the festival grounds, or is there a suitable runway at the festival grounds? What is your budget?
There are a lot of vagaries that make addressing this as posted quite difficult. This will required much logistical and technical knowledge and planning; do you have anyone on staff or under contract with the requisite knowledge?
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2862 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10222 times:
Quoting nicoj (Thread starter): - This B747 is to be acquired by a European music festival (the people I work for), who want the jumbo to be a fixture on the festival grounds.
Is your client/employer really willing to spend $2 million for an airworthy 747? It wasn't that long ago we had a thread about one that was going to be salvaged here in the US that sold for something like $150K US dollars.
Quoting joost (Reply 1): I would try something completely different: approach an Aircraft Scrapping company. For example, there is one at Keble, which have been scrapping several Air France and Corsair 747s. They will know where to find written-off airframes, know how to part them out, have knowledge about ground transportation, etc. I think this is more viable than buying an airworthy frame.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1597 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9959 times:
So you come to an internet bulletin board full of aviation nerds to launch a project involving acquiring, and flying, a 747?
May I suggest, out of courtesy, that you should perhaps consider conducting your research with the help of professionals? I know it costs money, but at least that way you may have a chance of success. With your initial action in mind, however, I fear your endeavors may ultimately lead to an unfortunate end.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5592 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9833 times:
There is no way I would let my 'European music festival' waste such ridiculous amounts of money on this idea, as much as you might love the concept. There is no way you could fly an airworthy 747, and then scrap it, and convert it to your needs, for less than many millions of dollars.... and end up with a hull worth very little, even if you did sell the engines etc. (a business you are not in, I presume).
The only cost-effective way of doing this, is to buy the scrapped 747 hull somewhere, and get it shipped .... still a poor economic idea in IMO ... the money could be much better spent elsewhere for the festival.
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31775 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9685 times:
Considering the planned use of the aircraft.no point spending on purchasing an airworthy unit & flying it to the venue,it would be cheaper still to procure a scrapped unit & transport it by road to the venue & erect the same there.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14526 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9671 times:
The moment the aircraft bgets stricken off the registration roll and leaves the controlled maintenance programme all parts will cease to be aircraft spare parts and will jusdt become scrap metal.
Nobody will certify for aircraft parts if the aircraft has left the maintenance programme.
Also don´t forget that a lot of the aircraft will become hazardous waste, which is very expensive to get rid off legally.
do not go together. Unless you are willing to spend $6 million + (to buy the plane, get it ready to fly including any mx work, insure it, fuel it, find a crew, fly it, transport it to the festival), you will, as everyone else has said, have to find a scrap frame and use that. This was the consensus on the last thread you posted too.
As has already been stated here aswell, once you've taken it, you won't be able to sell the components as spare parts. So you can forget flying it to Europe and selling the bits off that you don't need.
We're not just doing this for the lulz - there is nothing cheap about flying an airliner, even (and sometimes especially!) an old one.
shufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9212 times:
What possible music festival anywhere in the world is going to spend millions upon millions, not to mention the ridiculous level of red tape to get this happen? I wasn't even aware that any music festival owned the grounds that it's held on instead of renting. Seriously, what festival is going to go through all this just to have an old airliner around that almost no one outside of this community would care about?
BlueJuice From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9177 times:
Scrapping and conversion is not an overnight affair either. To recoup any costs, the usable parts will need to be properly dismantled and then recertified for resale. The frame will need to be drained of fuel and other fluids which need to be disposed of properly. Gutting the rest will yield tons and tons of assorted materials that need to be hauled away. This is all done at boneyards with lots of heavy equipment such as cranes. I can't imagine this being done away from a maintenance facility.
Not sure how close to festival grounds are to an airport that can support a 747 ferry flight but I am fairly certain you can't just taxi a 747 to it's final destination.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9168 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
The cheapest way to get an airliner might be to form a not-for-profit organization and convince an operator to donate an old one to you for the tax write-off. It's not uncommon for airlines to donate old airframes to universities, museums, etc in this manner.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2264 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8311 times:
I'm surprised you would come here looking for the answer. If you don't know where to go, I've got a bridge for sale, "cheap too just $50 dollars down, $50 dollars a week for 50 years" Cheech & Chong for Flighty
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8036 times:
We have many nay sayer here.
If they can convert a 727 or a 747 to a hotel (room), you can get a 747 for your music festival.
But as some have said. Do not get a flight worthy one. Consider not getting the wings. But if you want the wings, they can be removed and re-assembled. Remember, this would not be a flight worthy frame.
Shipping by barge is perfectly acceptable.
If they are going to chop down hundreds of trees to get the shuttle to a Los Angeles Museum, you can get you 747 with wings off via truck to a music festival.
Remember also that their are splice joints on the airframe that will allow you to break the 747 in smaller sections and re-assemble them later. Remember that when re-assembling, you don't have to make it flight worthy.
Best place to start talking is at your local flight museum. They will have many airplane restorers who can help you with the details.
If they can convert a 727 or a 747 to a hotel (room), you can get a 747 for your music festival.
A hotel is a business and that aircraft is the main selling point and also the structure to house the business. You'll also find most are close to airports. You cannot even being to compare that to a music festival doing this as a side project just to add a little bit of interest. I don't believe for a second this proposition is real. I really don't. I don't see how a music festival would have this sort of financing available and as I said above, I doubt most, if any music festivals own their own ground. What would they do with it the rest of the year? How can anyone imagine a festival going to this level of expense and trouble for something so trivial?
: ....and how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars do you think this might cost?? Nice comparison! Yes, it cost 14.2 million dollars ...
: The 727 I saw was on top of a cliff. They had to lift it up with a helicopter. Don't know if you can do that with a 747 section. As I recall, they ba
: just a thought, if it is for a one off festival, could not a film studio set department make up a mock up cheaper for you.
: Wait a minute? Does it have to be a B747? Near Seattle, we have an old ferry boat that needs a home. The boat is called the Kalakala. It would have hu
: No it wouldn't, as it will never be sold to become fodder for a music venue in Europe. Considering how much money was spent to bring that ferry back
: The Kalakala can be obtained cheap. Otherwise it will most likely end up in the crap yard. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/trans...ation/article/Kalak