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11:59 Pm Vs Midnight Departures, Double Per Diem?  
User currently offlineogshelly From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

I wonder why not midnight departures instead of 11:59PM, very soon those will be at11:59:59 PM. Examples are UA1046 IAH-CCS, or UA1009 IAH-BOG. With airliners pinching every penny, I doubt double per diem is allowed, if it is.....great! Flying one day and arriving a day later gives me an extra minute of jet lag. Anyone?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaiGywer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6814 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I think most crews are paid per hour away from base regardless, so the one minute won't mean anything.

User currently onlineUnited1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6793 times:

Quoting ogshelly (Thread starter):

I wonder why not midnight departures instead of 11:59PM, very soon those will be at11:59:59 PM.

Flights are scheduled that way so that passengers do not show up at noon instead of midnight...


User currently offlinejbmitt From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

I think it also has to do with the date.. a 12am departure adds confusion as to whether its the day before or day off. On booking engines it can be confusing because red eyes are typically the last flight of the day, not the first.

User currently offlineLAXintl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6712 times:

Also most airlines schedule in UTC time not local, so it does not matter what the local time is.

Timings like 23:59 are commercially driven for passenger convenience.


User currently offlinebestwestern From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Because passengers know that 23:59 on Wednesday is a flight on Wednesday evening.

It is well known that a midnight departure time is a real confusion for people - do they turn up on a Tuesday to fly at midnight or on a Wednesday to fly at midnight.


User currently offlineGoBoeing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6679 times:

This very issue helped me get home from Tel Aviv in business class.

It's good news for non-revs that know what day it is.  


User currently offlineogshelly From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 3):

I agree a 100%, I missed my flight BOG-IAH at the time it was at 12:15 AM, so it really confused me, as the Bogota-Houston's departure used to be or continues so at 8 AM. I confess I am now very careful. It makes a lot of sense the 11:59 PM schedule, I see it clearly now. You guys are smart!


User currently offlineflyingturtle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6489 times:

Quoting ogshelly (Reply 7):
12:15 AM

Who would confuse that with 0:15 in the morning? Or should "12:15" AM (for "quarter past noon") really be "12:15 PM", because the morning lasts from midnight to noon (which are exactly twelve hours, or half a day), so any minute past noon should be called PM...

In the 24-hour-format, a daytime like 24 hours and xx does not exist. So there shouldn't be a daytime like 12 hours and xx minutes in the 12-hour-format?

Well, change to our 24 hour format. Thank you. You've already learnt to use it in the armed forces. 

I understand the other issue though:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
Because passengers know that 23:59 on Wednesday is a flight on Wednesday evening.

David


User currently offlineZSOFN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
Who would confuse that with 0:15 in the morning? Or should "12:15" AM (for "quarter past noon") really be "12:15 PM", because the morning lasts from midnight to noon (which are exactly twelve hours, or half a day), so any minute past noon should be called PM...

12:15am *IS* 0:15 in the morning / quarter past midnight - you seem to have it the wrong way round.

Either way - I'm all for universal use of the 24 hour clock (much more commonly used here in the UK than the US already).


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6427 times:

I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

User currently offlineflyingturtle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 9):
12:15am *IS* 0:15 in the morning / quarter past midnight - you seem to have it the wrong way round.

I'll never book a flight to your country, ever again...  Wow!

On the 24 hour clock, 24 hours isn't allowed. So, a 12 on the 12 hour clock shouldn't exist, too. 0.15 AM is unambiguous - it's 15 minutes after the day started, 15 minutes past "zero".

11:59 AM is one minute before noon. So, 12 AM is noon. Therefore, 12:15 is fifteen minutes after noon... argh. 
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

Various flight dispatches here can tell you otherwise. A flight leaving at 1:00 on December 22nd leaves 1 hour after the day (22nd of Dec) began. To many people, 1:00 still belongs to the old day and the concept of having to pass the "night" at an airport doesn't make sense to them.

David


User currently onlineRoseflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
On the 24 hour clock, 24 hours isn't allowed. So, a 12 on the 12 hour clock shouldn't exist, too. 0.15 AM is unambiguous - it's 15 minutes after the day started, 15 minutes past "zero".

I think you are pointing out the problem. There is not an international standard definog a 12 or 24 hour clock that is widely used. What might make sense in Switzerland would confuse most Americans who have never seen 015 as a time and don't know te 24 hour clock and get confused. Most airlines in the US avoid 0000-0100 departures.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6348 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
Various flight dispatches here can tell you otherwise.

After 30 yrs at my present co. I can say the converting the UTC back to local has had me thinking twice more than once but never was a no show. To me the easiest one to screw up was say a 0345Z dept which is really 1045PM local the night before.


User currently offlineViscount724 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
11:59 AM is one minute before noon. So, 12 AM is noon.

I'm afraid not. In the 12-hour system 12 AM always been midnight, definitely not noon. 12 PM is noon.


User currently offlinekalvado From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6181 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

Try to imagine someone booking a flight and knowing when it departs - but knowing incorrectly.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6160 times:

Your humor did get a chuckle but sorry but it is written in regular am/pm time it takes very little "deciphering" to figure out and "know correctly".  

User currently offlineZSOFN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
I'll never book a flight to your country, ever again... Wow!

I live in the UK and we use the 24 hour clock - I think you've misinterpreted my response. Regardless moving everyone to a 24-hour clock makes far more sense.

For the record regarding 12am / pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock


User currently offlinecopter808 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
Your humor did get a chuckle but sorry but it is written in regular am/pm time it takes very little "deciphering" to figure out and "know correctly".

But using the 24-hour clock takes even less deciphering!

The incorrect use of AM/PM is common in some areas. If it has to do with store hours, a little common sense will figure it out. Much less clear in airline schedules though.


User currently offlinePWMRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

I still don't quite grasp what day an 00:00 flight departs.


I would assume if I booked a flight on October 2nd @ 00:00, I would get to the airport on October 1st @ 22:00 to check in.


Correct?


But to many people, midnight is still the prior day. So I'm sure you'd have plenty of people showing up @ 22:00 on October 2nd.


This is why there are 23:59 departures and 00:01 departures. Makes things much, much easier.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5749 times:

Railway timetables sometimes have 24:00 if the last minute of the old day is meant (especially for arrivals), and 0:00 if the first minute of the new day is meant (especially for departures).

But strictly speaking, 24:00 does not exist, because 0:00 already does.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 19):
I would assume if I booked a flight on October 2nd @ 00:00, I would get to the airport on October 1st @ 22:00 to check in.

Right, I'd do this too.

Somewhere on this forum, a flight dispatcher wrote that many people showed up a full day late for their flights. Because there were always people doing this, they were simply rebooked to their new flight... and this suddenly stopped when they introduced 23:50 departures.


David


User currently offlineTS-IOR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

This timing is used for passengers to avoid the date of flight confusion that may happens with midnight arrivals or departures.

User currently offlineViscount724 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 21):
This timing is used for passengers to avoid the date of flight confusion that may happens with midnight arrivals or departures.

As far as I know, the OAG system (used by almost all major airlines to distribute schedules to GDS systems) does not permit the use of 2400 as a departure time and 0000 as an arrival time. 2400 could be an arrival time and 0000 could be a departure time but due to the resulting confusion already mentioned, you virtually never see such times in airline schedules. It's much clear when it's 2359 or 0001.


User currently offlineCOSPN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..

User currently offlineStarlionblue From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..


Well, all of aviation does. For example all aviation weather products are 24-hour clock and Zulu time.


User currently offlinebond007 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..

Regardless, this issue is not really related to whether we use the 24-hour clock or not, but how we define and understand Midnight.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 19):
This is why there are 23:59 departures and 00:01 departures. Makes things much, much easier.

This is the sensible solution to this.


Jimbo


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