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11:59 Pm Vs Midnight Departures, Double Per Diem?  
User currently offlineogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

I wonder why not midnight departures instead of 11:59PM, very soon those will be at11:59:59 PM. Examples are UA1046 IAH-CCS, or UA1009 IAH-BOG. With airliners pinching every penny, I doubt double per diem is allowed, if it is.....great! Flying one day and arriving a day later gives me an extra minute of jet lag. Anyone?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12256 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6872 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I think most crews are paid per hour away from base regardless, so the one minute won't mean anything.


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6016 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Quoting ogshelly (Thread starter):

I wonder why not midnight departures instead of 11:59PM, very soon those will be at11:59:59 PM.

Flights are scheduled that way so that passengers do not show up at noon instead of midnight...



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinejbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6827 times:

I think it also has to do with the date.. a 12am departure adds confusion as to whether its the day before or day off. On booking engines it can be confusing because red eyes are typically the last flight of the day, not the first.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25784 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6770 times:

Also most airlines schedule in UTC time not local, so it does not matter what the local time is.

Timings like 23:59 are commercially driven for passenger convenience.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7213 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6746 times:

Because passengers know that 23:59 on Wednesday is a flight on Wednesday evening.

It is well known that a midnight departure time is a real confusion for people - do they turn up on a Tuesday to fly at midnight or on a Wednesday to fly at midnight.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2706 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

This very issue helped me get home from Tel Aviv in business class.

It's good news for non-revs that know what day it is.  


User currently offlineogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 3):

I agree a 100%, I missed my flight BOG-IAH at the time it was at 12:15 AM, so it really confused me, as the Bogota-Houston's departure used to be or continues so at 8 AM. I confess I am now very careful. It makes a lot of sense the 11:59 PM schedule, I see it clearly now. You guys are smart!


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2442 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6547 times:

Quoting ogshelly (Reply 7):
12:15 AM

Who would confuse that with 0:15 in the morning? Or should "12:15" AM (for "quarter past noon") really be "12:15 PM", because the morning lasts from midnight to noon (which are exactly twelve hours, or half a day), so any minute past noon should be called PM...

In the 24-hour-format, a daytime like 24 hours and xx does not exist. So there shouldn't be a daytime like 12 hours and xx minutes in the 12-hour-format?

Well, change to our 24 hour format. Thank you. You've already learnt to use it in the armed forces. 

I understand the other issue though:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
Because passengers know that 23:59 on Wednesday is a flight on Wednesday evening.

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6497 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
Who would confuse that with 0:15 in the morning? Or should "12:15" AM (for "quarter past noon") really be "12:15 PM", because the morning lasts from midnight to noon (which are exactly twelve hours, or half a day), so any minute past noon should be called PM...

12:15am *IS* 0:15 in the morning / quarter past midnight - you seem to have it the wrong way round.

Either way - I'm all for universal use of the 24 hour clock (much more commonly used here in the UK than the US already).


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2442 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 9):
12:15am *IS* 0:15 in the morning / quarter past midnight - you seem to have it the wrong way round.

I'll never book a flight to your country, ever again...  Wow!

On the 24 hour clock, 24 hours isn't allowed. So, a 12 on the 12 hour clock shouldn't exist, too. 0.15 AM is unambiguous - it's 15 minutes after the day started, 15 minutes past "zero".

11:59 AM is one minute before noon. So, 12 AM is noon. Therefore, 12:15 is fifteen minutes after noon... argh. 
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

Various flight dispatches here can tell you otherwise. A flight leaving at 1:00 on December 22nd leaves 1 hour after the day (22nd of Dec) began. To many people, 1:00 still belongs to the old day and the concept of having to pass the "night" at an airport doesn't make sense to them.

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
On the 24 hour clock, 24 hours isn't allowed. So, a 12 on the 12 hour clock shouldn't exist, too. 0.15 AM is unambiguous - it's 15 minutes after the day started, 15 minutes past "zero".

I think you are pointing out the problem. There is not an international standard definog a 12 or 24 hour clock that is widely used. What might make sense in Switzerland would confuse most Americans who have never seen 015 as a time and don't know te 24 hour clock and get confused. Most airlines in the US avoid 0000-0100 departures.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6406 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
Various flight dispatches here can tell you otherwise.

After 30 yrs at my present co. I can say the converting the UTC back to local has had me thinking twice more than once but never was a no show. To me the easiest one to screw up was say a 0345Z dept which is really 1045PM local the night before.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6273 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
11:59 AM is one minute before noon. So, 12 AM is noon.

I'm afraid not. In the 12-hour system 12 AM always been midnight, definitely not noon. 12 PM is noon.


User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6239 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 10):
I can't imagine someone booking a flight and not knowing when it departed.

Try to imagine someone booking a flight and knowing when it departs - but knowing incorrectly.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6218 times:

Your humor did get a chuckle but sorry but it is written in regular am/pm time it takes very little "deciphering" to figure out and "know correctly".  

User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6150 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
I'll never book a flight to your country, ever again... Wow!

I live in the UK and we use the 24 hour clock - I think you've misinterpreted my response. Regardless moving everyone to a 24-hour clock makes far more sense.

For the record regarding 12am / pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock


User currently offlinecopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6044 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
Your humor did get a chuckle but sorry but it is written in regular am/pm time it takes very little "deciphering" to figure out and "know correctly".

But using the 24-hour clock takes even less deciphering!

The incorrect use of AM/PM is common in some areas. If it has to do with store hours, a little common sense will figure it out. Much less clear in airline schedules though.


User currently onlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

I still don't quite grasp what day an 00:00 flight departs.


I would assume if I booked a flight on October 2nd @ 00:00, I would get to the airport on October 1st @ 22:00 to check in.


Correct?


But to many people, midnight is still the prior day. So I'm sure you'd have plenty of people showing up @ 22:00 on October 2nd.


This is why there are 23:59 departures and 00:01 departures. Makes things much, much easier.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2442 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

Railway timetables sometimes have 24:00 if the last minute of the old day is meant (especially for arrivals), and 0:00 if the first minute of the new day is meant (especially for departures).

But strictly speaking, 24:00 does not exist, because 0:00 already does.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 19):
I would assume if I booked a flight on October 2nd @ 00:00, I would get to the airport on October 1st @ 22:00 to check in.

Right, I'd do this too.

Somewhere on this forum, a flight dispatcher wrote that many people showed up a full day late for their flights. Because there were always people doing this, they were simply rebooked to their new flight... and this suddenly stopped when they introduced 23:50 departures.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineTS-IOR From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3488 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

This timing is used for passengers to avoid the date of flight confusion that may happens with midnight arrivals or departures.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 21):
This timing is used for passengers to avoid the date of flight confusion that may happens with midnight arrivals or departures.

As far as I know, the OAG system (used by almost all major airlines to distribute schedules to GDS systems) does not permit the use of 2400 as a departure time and 0000 as an arrival time. 2400 could be an arrival time and 0000 could be a departure time but due to the resulting confusion already mentioned, you virtually never see such times in airline schedules. It's much clear when it's 2359 or 0001.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..


Well, all of aviation does. For example all aviation weather products are 24-hour clock and Zulu time.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
Most people in the USA do not know the 24 Hour clock only Military and Airlines use it..

Regardless, this issue is not really related to whether we use the 24-hour clock or not, but how we define and understand Midnight.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 19):
This is why there are 23:59 departures and 00:01 departures. Makes things much, much easier.

This is the sensible solution to this.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
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