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Crash On TakeOff -Contamination Of Wing By Ice  
User currently offlinewhiplash From India, joined Nov 2011, 38 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

I am presently watching a "Mayday" episode on "Arrow Air Flight 1285". This is one of the many cases in which the contamination of the flight surfaces by ice is the reason the plane is unable to climb after take off.

Quote:
The Canadian Aviation Safety Board was unable to determine the exact sequence of events which led to this accident. The Board believes, however, that the weight of evidence supports the conclusion that, shortly after lift-off, the aircraft experienced an increase in drag and reduction in lift which resulted in a stall at low altitude from which recovery was not possible. The most probable cause of the stall was determined to be ice contamination on the leading edge and upper surface of the wing. Other possible factors such as a loss of thrust from the number four engine and inappropriate take-off reference speeds may have compounded the effects of the contamination.

What my question is what all can you do as a pilot when you are going through the same situation after take off?
1. Could you maybe add flaps? Or would that cause more drag?
2. Expecting ice on wings, could you keep the plane on the runway even after Vr if sufficient runway is available?
3. Retracting the landing gear even if there is no positive rate? ( I mean, come on! If you having been fighting to get the plane up, you most probably have used up all your runway and are approaching buildings or a forest. How much good would the landing gear be in that case)

Are there any such methods you could apply to get out of this situation?
thanks in advance for your responses..   

[Edited 2012-09-04 13:53:56]

6 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

If you're near a stall I don't think adding flaps will do anything other than stalling the aircraft. As for the gear the sequence will first open doors and that will cause drag which could be bad.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4877 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):

Are there any such methods you could apply to get out of this situation?

After smacking yourself in the forehead wondering why the heck you didn't de-ice, only thing I can think of is applying full thrust, if you are not already there. (Palm 90 hit the bridge destroying the aircraft and her passengers while trying to "save" the engines!)

And on that thought .... engine and wing anti-ice ON.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3631 times:

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):
What my question is what all can you do as a pilot when you are going through the same situation after take off?

Full thrust, maintain minimal rate of climb, pray for speed.

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):
1. Could you maybe add flaps? Or would that cause more drag?

That would cause more drag...in this situation, you need speed, not altitude. Minimum drag is your friend. The only exception I can think of is if you were doing a flaps-up takeoff (possible in some types)...that case, getting the slats out would buy you some stall margin and probably be more valuable than the small incremental drag. Slat extension might also break some ice off the leading edge.

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):
2. Expecting ice on wings, could you keep the plane on the runway even after Vr if sufficient runway is available?

Yes. That's called an overspeed or improved climb takeoff. It's normally used to allow higher takeoff weight but it also works to provide more speed margin in the climb.

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):
3. Retracting the landing gear even if there is no positive rate? ( I mean, come on! If you having been fighting to get the plane up, you most probably have used up all your runway and are approaching buildings or a forest. How much good would the landing gear be in that case)

If you don't have positive rate you don't know you're off the ground. If you're already airborne you should already have the gear up.

Tom.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting whiplash (Thread starter):
Expecting ice on wings, could you keep the plane on the runway even after Vr if sufficient runway is available?

That's a misunderstanding of the circumstances here. You're not "expecting" or accumulating ice as you roll down the runway and you wouldn't know if you did. The point here was taking off with ice already on the wings. Answer de-ice or if you have go back to the gate and do it again.If you did have ice on the wings you wouldn't know your problem until rotation then it's too late.


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1301 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3579 times:
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Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 4):
That's a misunderstanding of the circumstances here.

Yes - one would be very 'silly' to think - Oh - I've got some ice on my wings - I'll just hold'r on the ground till I get more speed that usual - then I'll be okay. That is about the dumbest de-icing routing you can use. If you have, or think you might have, ice- you remove it.



rcair1
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Many have attempted to takeoff with ice adhering to the top of the wing...knowingly or otherwise. Not usually a happy outcome. The CL-60 Challenger and RJ derivative have a particularly bad record due to its super-critical wing (and no leading edge lift device) that doesn't tolerate any contamination.

[Edited 2012-09-05 06:59:21]

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