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Why Don't 757s Have The Same Nose As 737/727/707s?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2664 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

All Boeing narrowbodies (707/727/737) have the same nose, except the 757, why?

[Edited 2012-09-15 13:56:22]


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18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6278 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6735 times:

Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767


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User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7180 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6587 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1):
Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767

Apparently as well, the 767 and the 777 share very similar cockpit components. (IIRC, isn't the 767 section 41 the same as the 777?)



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
isn't the 767 section 41 the same as the 777?

According to Reply 16 in this 2010 thread, the only part of section 41 that's the same is the frame around the cockpit windows and the radome.
777 "Neck"? (by Aerdingus Jan 14 2010 in Civil Aviation)#1


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1):
Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767

That has nothing to do with the OP's question. The shape of the nose itself has no relation to whether the flight deck instruments are identical enough to achieve a common type rating.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Apparently as well, the 767 and the 777 share very similar cockpit components.

The 767-400 and 777 have a few similarities in the flight deck (a relatively few actually) but again nothing to do with the OP's question.

To be honest I don't know the answer to the OP's real question but perhaps a long time Boeing person who worked on the 757 program can?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5724 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1):
Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767

That has nothing to do with the OP's question. The shape of the nose itself has no relation to whether the flight deck instruments are identical enough to achieve a common type rating.

If memory serves, the 757 had to have the cockpit seats at a certain height above the ground to share the rating with the 767. And that's why the 757 nose shape has a lot to do with the type rating.



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User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1):Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767
That has nothing to do with the OP's question. The shape of the nose itself has no relation to whether the flight deck instruments are identical enough to achieve a common type rating.

Actually. the shape of the 757 nose was dictated by the 767 flight deck arrangement. The 757 nose had to widened and the flight deck floor had to be slanted down to accommodate the 767 flight deck displays. In addition, the flight deck floor had to be lowered, so you step down to enter the 757 flight deck, but step up to enter on the 767's.

The distinct 757 nose was created by these modifications.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
If memory serves, the 757 had to have the cockpit seats at a certain height above the ground to share the rating with the 767. And that's why the 757 nose shape has a lot to do with the type rating.

The ground height was not important, but forward view was. The 757 and 767 have a similar forward view on approach. This is another reason why the 757 flight deck floor slopes down.



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User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 1):
Boeing went with a common cockpit and type rating of the 757 and 767

That has nothing to do with the OP's question. The shape of the nose itself has no relation to whether the flight deck instruments are identical enough to achieve a common type rating.

It's not just about instruments. The view has to be comparable; there was just no way to get the same visual field in a 737-style cockpit to be close enough to the 767 for common rating.

Tom.


User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
The 757 nose had to widened and the flight deck floor had to be slanted down to accommodate the 767 flight deck displays. In addition, the flight deck floor had to be lowered, so you step down to enter the 757 flight deck, but step up to enter on the 767's.

The distinct 757 nose was created by these modifications.

So is the following statement an urban myth:

The nose of the 757and 767 are also structurally the same for production purposes? I thought I heard somewhere that from cockpit window forward, the 767 and 757 have the same nose shape.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
Actually. the shape of the 757 nose was dictated by the 767 flight deck arrangement. The 757 nose had to widened and the flight deck floor had to be slanted down to accommodate the 767 flight deck displays. In addition, the flight deck floor had to be lowered, so you step down to enter the 757 flight deck, but step up to enter on the 767's.

The distinct 757 nose was created by these modifications.

Very interesting, never ever heard of that. And that's why I love these forums!



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User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19371 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 8):
The nose of the 757and 767 are also structurally the same for production purposes? I thought I heard somewhere that from cockpit window forward, the 767 and 757 have the same nose shape.

No, that is absolutely false. One need only look at both aircraft to see that it's not true. The parts of the nose visible from the cockpit need to be the same shape, yes, but the entire nose is markedly different.

As for the 707, 727, and 737, recall that Boeing decided to use the same nose for all three to simplify design and construction. Pilots really don't like the 737 nose and there are issues with visibility and ergonomics. When it came time to design the 757, Boeing designed an entirely new narrowbody nose for the reasons outlined in this thread.

It turned out that the 737 would outlive the 757 (something I don't think Boeing forsaw at the time). Boeing can't change the nose of the 737 to match the 757 (although it would make pilots happier) because it would basically make the aircraft into an entire new type and mean that pilots would not be able to move from the 737-classics to the 73G/73MAX series.

You will notice that the A320 and the DC-9 series have similar noses with a "droopy" profile, much like the 757. I am given to understand that pilots like that sort of profile a lot more.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5020 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
As for the 707, 727, and 737, recall that Boeing decided to use the same nose for all three to simplify design and construction.

The forward fuselage section of the 707 is not identical to the 727 and 737, and I don't even think the 727 and 737 sections are completely identical. The 707 in particular has a deeper fuselage from top to bottom than the 727/737.


User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

No, that is absolutely false.

As with most urban myth, there is a sliver of truth.

I found this"

http://seattletimes.com/news/business/757/part03/

"And hanging on Condit's office wall, framed and signed, is one of White's original renderings of how he thought the 767 cab could be fitted to the 757. "

I guess this is where it started. The article is an interesting read.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week ago) and read 4835 times:
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actually they got tired of A.netters complaining about 50 year old designs...      

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3465 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
All Boeing narrowbodies (707/727/737) have the same nose, except the 757, why?

707 is late 1950's design.
727/737 are early 1960's designs.
757 is late 1970's design.

The 727 & 737 followed the original 707 fairly quickly (in time) so their designs were essentially modifications to the original 707 aircraft. There was a significant gap in time before the 757 was developed and there was significant improvement in aerodynamics (and other areas) during that time.

Different era = different designs.



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User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

Cockpit commonality between the B757 AND B767 determined this.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
It turned out that the 737 would outlive the 757 (something I don't think Boeing forsaw at the time).

Agreed.....



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User currently offlinePurdueAv2003 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 250 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
It turned out that the 737 would outlive the 757 (something I don't think Boeing forsaw at the time). Boeing can't change the nose of the 737 to match the 757 (although it would make pilots happier) because it would basically make the aircraft into an entire new type and mean that pilots would not be able to move from the 737-classics to the 73G/73MAX series.

I don't think the new cockpit would have changed the type. Look at the changes in wing and pylon structure between the classics and NG. In fact, I had heard a rumor once that Boeing had originally considered the 757 Forward Nose section for the NG, but someone at WN didn't like the look of the design, so they reverted back to the older design.



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User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4547 times:

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 16):
I don't think the new cockpit would have changed the type. Look at the changes in wing and pylon structure between the classics and NG.

The wing/pylon structure doesn't have any impact on crew commonality...the flight deck design has huge impacts. For the same reasons that the 757 and 767 needed very similar flight decks to have a common crew rating, the 737 can't change noses.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19371 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 16):
I don't think the new cockpit would have changed the type. Look at the changes in wing and pylon structure between the classics and NG. In fact, I had heard a rumor once that Boeing had originally considered the 757 Forward Nose section for the NG, but someone at WN didn't like the look of the design, so they reverted back to the older design.

Not at all. As TDSCanuck says, a change in the cockpit changes the type rating for the crew. WN cares not one whit about the look. They care that every single last pilot on their payroll can fly every single last plane in their fleet.


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