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RUMOR: WN Pulls Etops App (can Anyone Confirm)  
User currently offlinewwtraveler99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12846 times:

Yes this is a rumor and since I am not versed on the process of getting ETOPS certification I have some questions.

1. Where can someone find out if an app is retracted?
2. Can a carrier just decide to change their mind like that?
3. What sense would this make for WN do do something like this?
4. Wouldn't this warrent a media report, if it actually happened?


I find it very hard to believe this information. I got the information from a friend who read it on a pilot message board. (i am assuming some sort on internal message board)

Thanks for any information you can provide to dis-spell this rumor.


WW

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12738 times:

I don't see why they would, but I cannot confirm that they didn't retract it. I thought they were all amped up about starting int'l and Hawaii services with the 738s. Wouldn't a lot of their proposed int'l flights from HOU require ETOPS certification?

User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12585 times:
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Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
Wouldn't a lot of their proposed int'l flights from HOU require ETOPS certification?

No. Just some over water equipment like rafts and vests. Not ETOPS, since youll never be likely more than 45-60 minutes from land at any point.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12557 times:

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 2):

Thanks for the clarification, I thought it was a lot more complicated than that, but I overthink things a lot    


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12525 times:
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The ETOPS application was for Hawaiian services, NOT for the Caribbean, correct?

DO NOT need ETOPS to hop over the Gulf of Mexico, heck a King air can probably cross the Gulf


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12365 times:

How long will it take for that "someone" (with 25,600 or so posts) to post this on Flyertalk?  

User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12225 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
The ETOPS application was for Hawaiian services, NOT for the Caribbean, correct?

ETOPS isn't necessarily specific to an area but it's not really required for Caribbean operations.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1935 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12123 times:

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Thread starter):
2. Can a carrier just decide to change their mind like that?

Of course. If WN decided they didn't want to fly any ETOPS routes, then they would not continue going through the process. It's not as if they are in some legally binding contract.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Thread starter):
3. What sense would this make for WN do do something like this?

The ONLY route WN needs ETOPS on is Hawaii. They do not need it for the Caribbean, Latin America, South America, etc. Only Hawaii. So the only reason WN might do this would be if they no longer wished to fly to Hawaii. In my opinion, it would be a huge waste since they have the new -800s that are being delivered ETOPS ready. ETOPS is a major financial investment and the -800s were bought to service leisure routes. Why get the -800s if they aren't going to properly use them? Very sad.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Thread starter):
I find it very hard to believe this information. I got the information from a friend who read it on a pilot message board

Unfortunately, I have heard this rumor as well. I also have yet to see any form of concrete evidence.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Thread starter):
4. Wouldn't this warrent a media report, if it actually happened?

Why would the media care about this? I don't think America is on the edge of their seats waiting to see if WN will get ETOPS certification or not.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11955 times:

This rumor has 2 reason to it.
1. If the FA TWU 556 fail to pass this 2nd side letter on over water near international flying.
The company just going to put Hawaii off until 2015 and resume talks with the FA group in Aug 2013 when the FA work group starts new contract talks.
2. The weight and balance issue with 737-800 are causing delays to the application being passed.

There is also another rumor if the TA FAILS WN will use FL which is Etops approved will server Hawaii until 2015.
While the FA group goes thru contract talks.
Personally while I think there were some things I would have loved to seen in the TA.
It's still 85% better than the last TA.
I think it will pass.
Wnfg  



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1935 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11918 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
FL which is Etops approved

FL is not ETOPS approved.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11799 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
There is also another rumor if the TA FAILS WN will use FL which is Etops approved will server Hawaii until 2015.

FL isnt Etops approved. They are approved for extended overwater flying but not Etops however they are far more versed and could be closer to getting the certification then WN is. FL 737's have the avionic and equipment for that kind of flying they just dont have the ETOPS program though it was something the Independent FL was considering.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1379 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11784 times:

Quote:
1. If the FA TWU 556 fail to pass this 2nd side letter on over water near international flying.

I just hopes it passes. On a similar note, What's going on with Southwest Airlines out sourcing at MDW?



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 925 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11769 times:

What's being outsourced at MDW?


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11695 times:

I don not think that WN is terminating their ETOPS program. FAA is currently at SWA HQ meeting with Flight OPS on the application. Word is that it is about completed. SWA employees have been working on the Hawaii service.

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11582 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
The ETOPS application was for Hawaiian services, NOT for the Caribbean, correct?

  

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
heck a King air can probably cross the Gulf

I'm pretty sure a King Air could cross any body of water since business aircraft don't have to comply with ETOPS. Doesn't make it a good idea though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11287 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 13):
I don not think that WN is terminating their ETOPS program. FAA is currently at SWA HQ meeting with Flight OPS on the application. Word is that it is about completed. SWA employees have been working on the Hawaii service.


Has SWA done proving runs for the etops service yet? Also isnt a small component of approval that the FA's are certified for water evacs and the planes to have rafts? Do the FA over water flying count towards this certification? Just wondering.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11125 times:
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Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):

Fron HOU to Mexico only requires Overwater Equipment. they're not going to be more than 60 minuted from land at any time.. Hawaii requires 180 min ETOPS Certification. If their new airplanes are delivered ETOPS then they'll just have to certify the long range navigation and Communications along with the ETOPS equipment and Proving Runs. It's a little more than just paperwork.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10783 times:

As has been stated, the only routes that WN wants to fly that would require ETOPS is hawaii.

All caribbean and south american flying is non ETOPS.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10638 times:

The two main reasons WN got the 800's was for ETOPS destinations and for slot controlled airports. i personally feel there is no truth to this etops rumor

User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1935 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9753 times:

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 15):
Has SWA done proving runs for the etops service yet?

No, not at all. There are a few rumors that WN was doing some proving runs on revenue flights across country with paxs on board. But you can't do proving runs with paxs and it would have to be a maintenance flight. Also, the rumor came from pilots  

I've heard that proving runs might be done in the AUG-OCT 2013 time frame in order to start an OCT-DEC 2013 service. Again, more hearsay. In terms of cold hard facts, WN has released nothing regarding Hawaii or ETOPS.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 13):
I don not think that WN is terminating their ETOPS program. FAA is currently at SWA HQ meeting with Flight OPS on the application. Word is that it is about completed. SWA employees have been working on the Hawaii service.

That would be great news. Again, more rumors, but I've also heard that WN did their application for ETOPS (whatever that entails) and then pulled back on it. Haven't heard if it was restarted, if the rumor were true.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 18):
The two main reasons WN got the 800's was for ETOPS destinations and for slot controlled airports. i personally feel there is no truth to this etops rumor

True. I personally never believed that WN wanted to use the -800s on slot controlled airports. Though they have said that was their intent in numerous articles, I think they wanted the -800 more for leisure routes like the Caribbean, Hawaii, Latin America, and Alaska. To me, those are much more useful to the Company than DCA or wherever else. The -800 costs roughly the same to operate as a -700, hence putting them on leisure routes.

Again, I've said it before, theres no way WN would have the -800s installed ETOPS ready if they had no intent or were iffy on going to Hawaii. That would be too much of a waste of money.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1379 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9043 times:

Quote:
What's being outsourced at MDW?

There was a thread a little while ago that SWA was trying to out source some MDW ramp employees and the MDW employees picketed.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4092 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 7):
Why would the media care about this? I don't think America is on the edge of their seats waiting to see if WN will get ETOPS certification or not.

The stock market cares. News like this would get extrapolated to a point where, 'Southwest is in dire financial trouble!!!'


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8550 times:

WN was capable in over 25 years to grow and become a national trunk carrier.

But whoever was the project manager for the Merger should be fired..... No foresight with the computer
problems, integration problems, scheduling problems...... and the list goes on.
If this proves to be true....... who is running this company? You go and purchase $40-60m airplanes and
then you negotiate? with the unions ?

Be real!


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8229 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 19):
No, not at all. There are a few rumors that WN was doing some proving runs on revenue flights across country with paxs on board. But you can't do proving runs with paxs and it would have to be a maintenance flight. Also, the rumor came from pilots  

Completely and totally untrue. You can do ETOPS proving runs between any city pair that is long enough. LAS-MDW for example. They run the flight like it's etops, with etops entry and exit and and ETP and ETOPS fuel and MTC regs in place for it. They can have passengers on these flights. That is in fact how all etops proving flights are done.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineN737AA From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8105 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
There is also another rumor if the TA FAILS WN will use FL which is Etops approved will server Hawaii until 2015.

Wrong.....love the misinformation on this board.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 16):
If their new airplanes are delivered ETOPS then they'll just have to certify the long range navigation and Communications along with the ETOPS equipment and Proving Runs. It's a little more than just paperwork.

Wrong, its much more than that, infact it has more to do with aircraft configuration control and maintenance reliability. It takes time to prove that your proposed fleet and maintenance program meet the reliability requirements for ETOPS. We all remember the G4 fiasco in getting their ETOPS certification.....it takes time.

N737AA


25 bobnwa : When did WN announce Hawaii and international service?
26 wwtraveler99 : Is there aywhere to find out where they are in the process. Or is it just something we only know by the information that the airlines wants to give ou
27 infiniti329 : Well sir I can confirm for you that slot controlled airports was one the reasons for getting the 800. Particularly high yield markets with slot contr
28 yellowtail : I have done it in a 208....hit a thunderstorm .....can't say I plan on doing it again
29 airbazar : True, however it's up to each airline to decide what a suitablle airport is for them. Many flights over Africa for example operate under ETOPS rules
30 Cubsrule : Keep in mind, too, that WN has operational limitations that act a lot like slots but are not slots at a number of large stations (particularly MDW, L
31 wnflyguy : Now with this "rumor" and any variation of it do I believe any of it? No Yes I did post the reasons I was told and the rumor of FL doing Hawaii flying
32 barney captain : You don't understand ETOP's certification - it is entirely carrier specific. There would be ZERO logic in getting "FL" ETOPS certified because they w
33 Post contains images Litz : They do this all the time, northbound, filled with "cargo" ...
34 strfyr51 : There are NOT only ETOPS pilot Procedures but Maintenance Procedures as well. and Maintenance control and reporting is essential for ETOPS certificat
35 barney captain : Absolutely. In fact, the MX end of the ETOPS certification is by far the most complicated.
36 737tdi : I can say, as a WN line mech. they must not be in any big rush. Heck, I haven't even been to the 800 differences course, including ETOPS familiarizat
37 SKC : I don't know of any carrier that does "proving runs" with revenue passengers on board. Those are the flights with the FAA on board running various sc
38 SKC : There have been no proving runs, tabletop exercises, or simulated ETOPS flights operated by Southwest (or FL for that matter) at this time. SWA doesn
39 Silver1SWA : Incorrect. Nothing is being outsourced at MDW. The fuss is about proposed contract language that would allow the company to outsource up to 20% of ra
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