Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC  
User currently offlinesmartt1982 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

It is my understanding (and my company SOPS) that if we have an engine failure on Take off the normal SID takes second place to the handling of the engine failure (except of course if we have an Emergency turn), we have been told to go straight ahead whilst climbing to the MSA if at all possible. Do ATC know we are going to do this? I am just thinking of situations where the alignment of the departing runway will take you straight into the approach/departure path of other aircraft from other airports i.e. London TMA. Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

6 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4970 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Do ATC know we are going to do this?

Generally not. If there is an engine-out SID they probably expect you'll follow that but they know that you may not. The pilot, not ATC, has ultimate authority on safe operation of the aircraft. ATC expects you to do what you have to do and tell them what you're doing if/when you get a chance.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Do what you need to do to take care of your airplane; ATC retains responsibility for maintaining seperation and, even if you don't talk to them, they will vector other aircraft around you if you start to head into a conflict and aren't talking to them.

Tom.


User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4919 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not to mention, that if you have an engine issue that's grabbing that much of your attention, someone in the tower (or elsewhere) probably saw the somewhat spectacular result from outside, that you're frantically troubleshooting on the inside ...

User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21679 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

I don't believe so. If there's a SID, I'll be flying it (on AP) while troubleshooting the problem. An engine failure (or even an engine fire) isn't so serious that I can't take a couple of seconds to engage nav mode, select FLC V2, and then start working on whatever checklist needs to be run. If there's a special engine-out departure, I'll fly that.

If it's something where controllability of the aircraft is an issue (i.e. reverser deployment), then I'll go straight ahead until I can get things sorted out. But SIDs and DPs tend to be established for a reason, which is likely unknown to me; it could be terrain, it could be lots of traffic somewhere, but more likely than not it's going to be for something I don't want to be heading into. So I'll try and follow the SID to the extent practical.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4597 posts, RR: 77
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4685 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
So I'll try and follow the SID to the extent practical.

Sometimes it's a good recipe for an encounter with Terra Firma and things attached to her.
There are many places where terrain / climb performance are big factors on airplane one-engine-out trajectories . Those paths are inserted into our FMS data bases as EOSIDs (engine out SIDs).
ATC isn't supposed to know of all of them, so when one has time, it would be good to inform the tower people on your trajectory.



Contrail designer
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21679 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
Sometimes it's a good recipe for an encounter with Terra Firma and things attached to her.

Obviously, I'll only follow a SID if I can meet its climb requirements. If I can't do that, then I'll have an engine-out climb ready in case it's necessary, and I'll advise ATC of what I'm doing as soon as practical (though normally they parallel the regular SIDs, just with restrictions on speed and bank angle to ensure that one stays on course).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9153 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
engine failure on Take off the normal SID takes second place to the handling of the engine failure

Correct, fly the aircraft. A-N-C.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
we have been told to go straight ahead whilst climbing to the MSA if at all possible

Do what your performance charts says to do, they are certified documents.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Do ATC know we are going to do this?

No

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

A quick 10s Pan/Maday with STANDBY call you back is enough. Leave the ATC to them, and you should fly the aircraft. They will sort the traffic out, and then will also keep an eye on you. Been a number of cases where aircraft have got into trouble, people go so focused on trying to fix the problem they forgot to fly the aircraft. Monitoring of their path by ATC saved the day.

When you have a chance, in plain language tell ATC what happened, what you need (eg somewhere to dump fuel for 20 minutes), and your intentions, (come back/divert). They can then plan for this, and the subsequent handling is all taken care of.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
ATC expects you to do what you have to do and tell them what you're doing if/when you get a chance.

Correct

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
ATC retains responsibility for maintaining seperation and, even if you don't talk to them, they will vector other aircraft around you if you start to head into a conflict and aren't talking to them.

Correct

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
though normally they parallel the regular SIDs, just with restrictions on speed and bank angle to ensure that one stays on course

Most of our close in EO stuff looks nothing like normal SIDs. Normal SIDs are designed with traffic, ATC, and airways in mind. EO sids are designed with terrain in mind. A lot of places we go if we cannot reach a certain altitude by X DME on the normal SID, we turn back overhead the departure airport or a nearby aid.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Lights Off On Take Off And Landing posted Sat Jan 7 2006 00:27:35 by Newagebird
B733 Engine Whine On Take-off posted Fri Nov 1 2002 10:32:12 by LMML 14/32
Engine Failures On Take-off posted Wed Jul 12 2000 13:15:44 by Azeem
Dual Engine Failure On Twins And Fly-by-wire posted Sat Oct 25 2003 09:46:01 by Artsyman
Minumum Take Off And Landing Length posted Wed May 30 2012 18:04:25 by FlyIndia
707 Holding Brakes On Take Off posted Thu Jan 26 2012 00:12:34 by Jackbr
ERJ-145 Noises On Take-off Roll posted Sat Oct 17 2009 07:19:53 by Lincoln
Slowest Plane On Take-off Roll? posted Mon Sep 14 2009 07:44:37 by September11
A340 Engine Angle During Take-off posted Tue Feb 3 2009 01:05:33 by Varig767
Fuel Consumption During Take-off And Landing posted Fri Nov 21 2008 02:36:08 by Panais

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format