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747 Full Length Double Decks  
User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 44
Posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6320 times:

While reading up on the 747 first designs i noticed that Boeing had plans for a full length double decks.
Why did Boeing not go ahead with this instead opting for the hump. ?


On a wing and a prayer
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1899 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6296 times:

The design they were looking at was a narrower body double decker of about the same capacity as the 747. But when they and their customers, particularly Juan Trippe, saw a mockup of the wide body cabin, it was so impressive they decided to go that route.
The plane was originally though of as mainly a freighter. Putting to cockpit up high let them install a nose that opened for loading without the great complexity having the cockpit in the part that raised up. They went ahead and added a few seats behind the cockpit on the original and a lot more seats on later models.
Joe Sutter was the guy who headed the team and his book, 747, is a great read on the creation of the Jumbo.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Hi nomadd.
Interesting that it was meant to be a freighter originally.
Is the original test frame still around. ?



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6192 times:
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N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.519318,-122.29945&z=18&t=h&hl=en



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User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1899 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 2):
Hi nomadd.
Interesting that it was meant to be a freighter originally.
Is the original test frame still around. ?

Not so much meant to be a freighter as they thought the freighter would be most of it's sales. As with the 737, people thought that the SSTs would be the future of passenger travel and subsonic liners wouldn't be around that much longer.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17168 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6138 times:

Here are a couple of 747 concepts.

The "anteater"
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/Early747options_anteater.jpg

Mid-wing double decker
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/Early747options_doubledecker.jpg

And just for fun, the 747-300 three-engine shrink that was conceived after the design was finalized.
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/B747-300_Concept_with_three_engines.jpg



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

As a sidenote re the photo, it's sad that those historically-important aircraft are sitting outdoors in SEA's far less-than-favorable climate for long-term aircraft preservation. They should ask a local resident like Bill Gates for a donation to build a hangar and name it for him. It would just be small change for him.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31384 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5999 times:
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The Museum of Flight does have plans to build a hangar for the planes currently on display in the Air Park.

User currently offlinetod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 5761 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 2):
Is the original test frame still around. ?

I've got a pair of Weber pax seats out of it sitting at my Dad's house.


User currently onlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1662 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5590 times:
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Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

A little bit of useless trivia as to why the #1 747, N7470 did not have the registration number of N747.

N747 was registered to FMC Corporation and they had that number way before Boeing even designed the 747, it goes back to when FMC operated a B-23 Dragon as their first corporate airplane.

I knew the mechanics from FMC, they were based in the same hanger where I worked and they told me that Boeing offered FMC tons of money for the registration number, but FMC turned it down because they had that number for many years and were not about to give it up, so Boeing went with N7470 instead.

Checking the FAA database today shows the number is reserved, but not assigned to any airplane.

JetStar


User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Guys thanks for all this information.
I just love to read stuff i didn't know about the quren of the skies



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Boeing still has a chance to make the 747 a full length double decker.

During the course of designing the 747-8, Boeing freed up the space above door 3 to door 5 and tried to promote adding beds, lounge, galley and even gym up there. There were no takers except for VIP jets. Pax seats cannot be added due to take off and landing safety regulations. Can Boeing overcome this?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/07/travel/aeroloft-business-beds/index.html

Now that the design is already in place. How airlines can increase seat count by leveraging this new space will dictate if it will eventually happen. Moving galley and toilet up will allow some extra seat to be put on the main deck, but is it enough to justify?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31384 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5270 times:
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Quoting cosmofly (Reply 11):
Can Boeing overcome this?

Sure.

If they want to design in windows, exit doors and slides along the top of the plane and then submit it for re-certification.

Which is definitely not going to happen due to the cost in time, money and weight.

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:42:10]

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1404 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

One of the 747 concepts (747-700X?) actually went with a wider fuselage, rather than extending the upper deck.

User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Is it in the pipeline for future designs for a full 2 deck aircraft to compete with the a380 say a 797 full double deck 800 seat capacity?


On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17168 posts, RR: 66
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 14):

Is it in the pipeline for future designs for a full 2 deck aircraft to compete with the a380 say a 797 full double deck 800 seat capacity?

Probably not. The VLA market seems only large enough for one aircraft right now, and barely at that. The development costs are immense and the market is relatively small so likely not a good idea to try to enter when there is already an option.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
Probably not. The VLA market seems only large enough for one aircraft right now, and barely at that. The development costs are immense and the market is relatively small so likely not a good idea to try to enter when there is already an option.

Even that one aircraft isn't selling as well as projected.



DMI
User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4756 times:

Starlionblue.
Thanks for that info its sad that at times that the state of the market dictates what gets done and doesn't although its completely right.



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1348 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4575 times:
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Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 17):

Starlionblue.
Thanks for that info its sad that at times that the state of the market dictates what gets done and doesn't although its completely right.

Huh? The state of the market should dictate what gets done. Define "right" if the market won't support it.

What is 'right' about a plane that will not sell, or causes the Manf or airline to loose money, the passenger to lose service. That is the way of bankruptcy - or these days - government bailouts (even worse).



rcair1
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