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Bird Hit Chances At SOF/LBSF

HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58
Posted (7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Considering the number of birds and the location,Shouldn't ops be restricted in such times,Is this common out at this airfield.....

Think of the brighter side!

18 replies: All unread, jump to last

JumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2462 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

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Wow that's a lot of birds MEL.
One thing that's always plays on my mind is why cant engine manufacturers come up with a design to the front intake that would keep birds out.
Now i know the airflow would be restricted.
But can it be done.

On a wing and a prayer

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 2, posted (7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 1):
One thing that's always plays on my mind is why cant engine manufacturers come up with a design to the front intake that would keep birds out.
Now i know the airflow would be restricted.
But can it be done.

Interesting as a thought experiment. You'd need some way to "filter out" the bird before it reaches the blades.

However in the case of props you don't want them to hit the prop anyway so while a bird filter would help the turbine or reciprocating engine it wouldn't help the prop blades.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4246 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 1):
One thing that's always plays on my mind is why cant engine manufacturers come up with a design to the front intake that would keep birds out.

I don't think airflow is a big a problem as yuou may think....until the ice starts to form on whatever media you use to filter the birds. You can anti-ice, but you are starting to add complexity, weight and cost.

When seconds count...the police are minutes away!

dandaire From UK - Wales, joined Jul 2008, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 1):
One thing that's always plays on my mind is why cant engine manufacturers come up with a design to the front intake that would keep birds out.

Some turboprop aircraft already do have such a design. The Saab 340 intake does have a "bird-catcher" design. Any birds or other debris is routed away from the engine into the bird catcher and down into the bottom of the nacelle away from the engine inlet.

Old age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill.

AF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Didn't old(er) 707 and 727 engines have some kind of fairing in front of the main fan?

It looked like a fan itself but was fixed.

JPC.

flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1273 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 5):

These might be stator vanes - they stabilize the airstream before it hits the fan. Normaly, stator vanes are behind the fan.

See here:

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Photo © Marc Riedel

David

Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.

AF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
These might be stator vanes - they stabilize the airstream before it hits the fan. Normaly, stator vanes are behind the fan.

Thanks David.

These being in the front, would that be strong enough to prevent a bird ingestion? Or at least to slow the bird down enough so that the blades don't get damaged?

Unless the bird actually gets stuck there. Hum.

JPC.

flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1273 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):

No, at takeoff speed these stator blades will slice through the bird like a knife through hot butter.

Add to that the suction of the fan behind.

However, your idea (or sort of) was accidentally tested in the real world... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jxcSY1AwrM , and the guy has survived to tell his tale:

Sailor Sucked Into An A6 Engine (by A5XX May 4 2005 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

David

Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.

HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 1):
he front intake that would keep birds out.

as long as its not at a compromise to performance , finally its about $$$.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
These might be stator vanes - they stabilize the airstream before it hits the fan. Normaly, stator vanes are behind the fan.

the Bird strike to a low bypass turbofan can be more expensive as the bird can damage multiple layers beyond....On a High bypass Turbofan the chances are less & 1st stage fan blades can be replaced on line.

Think of the brighter side!

PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4954 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
the Bird strike to a low bypass turbofan can be more expensive as the bird can damage multiple layers beyond....On a High bypass Turbofan the chances are less & 1st stage fan blades can be replaced on line.

I've heard of some people designing some type of cover that keeps debris from entering the intake of the fan....but wouldn't that just restrict airflow too? I recall an older model of the Learjet or Cessna Citation that had something similar to that but I'm not 100%.

Also: don't airports use noises that only birds can hear to keep them away?

頑張ろう日本!

Larshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Also: don't airports use noises that only birds can hear to keep them away?

Some probably do. in SGD and ODE they use shoot with blanks from a shotgun before aircrafts arrives and departs.

/Lars

306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, B22, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4

HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):

Also: don't airports use noises that only birds can hear to keep them away?

The Fireworks guy lighting fire crackers at fixed intervals are common at most places....The better Airports use Noise generating Vehicles that roam the runways producing sound waves that affect birds.....

Think of the brighter side!

Dufo From Slovenia, joined May 1999, 752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

I was based in Sofia for a few months in 2010 and don't remember any special problems with birds.
Ducks in Marseille were much more problematic and unpredictable

I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.

pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Why not make a puncture-proof tire? Tires fail. Planes hit birds. The results are seldom any worse than mx cleaning guts off the airframe.

Bird strikes happen quite often. Looking back through my logbook I average 2 per year over 12 years. My personal high was 7 when I was instructing in 2007. Biggest was a red-tailed hawk. That left a mark.

DMI

HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (7 months 23 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 14):
Why not make a puncture-proof tire

Weight penalty.......& the concern of bird hits is not tire damage but rather bird strike or worse bird ingestion.
Airports should have a residential cleared area of 1-2 km ideal to curb birds.

Think of the brighter side!

pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1396 times:

I think you missed my point, Mel. It's not a new problem. Bird strikes happen. They happen all the time as I'm sure you know. There have been only maybe a handfull of flights in 100 years of aviation where bird strikes caused a threat to the safety of passengers. If it were a greater issue it would have been addressed decades ago but it hasn't because it's cost prohibitive and quite honestly, one of the smaller risks to the safety of flight.

DMI

HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1382 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 16):
There have been only maybe a handfull of flights in 100 years of aviation where bird strikes caused a threat to the safety of passengers.

Agreed bird strike leading to a disaster is rare,but in todays times the impact on the financial strength of the airline is a concern too.

Think of the brighter side!

flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1609 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1017 times:

Seems like a bunch of Swallows... I don't ever recall there being problems with birds at SOF.

Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist

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