Sponsor Message:
 Change Forum... Civil Aviation Travel, Polls & Prefs Tech/Ops Aviation Hobby Aviation Photography Photography Feedback Trip Reports Military Av & Space Non-Aviation Site Related LIVE Chat My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search
 Boeing Rate Of Climb?
 Novice From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 90 posts, RR: 0Posted Tue Oct 9 2012 14:29:37 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5319 times:

 General At VR the aircraft should be smoothly rotated to a body angle of 15 degrees in accordance with the recommended Boeing rate of 3 degrees per second. I understand that the 15 degrees must be measured from the horizon though what does the 3 degrees per second be measured from and what does it mean?
 15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted Tue Oct 9 2012 14:32:25 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5315 times:

 3 degrees per second means that you should take 5 seconds of smooth transition to 15 degrees of pitch.
 The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 2, posted Tue Oct 9 2012 17:51:56 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

 Quoting Novice (Thread starter):I understand that the 15 degrees must be measured from the horizon

It's from *horizontal*, not the horizon. If you're anywhere with terrain features, 15 degrees above horizontal will be less than 15 degrees above the horizon.

Tom.

 Yukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 156 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted Tue Oct 9 2012 18:00:13 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

 Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):It's from *horizontal*, not the horizon. If you're anywhere with terrain features, 15 degrees above horizontal will be less than 15 degrees above the horizon

Not if you're rotating off the last half of Runway 33 at ANC.
Sorry Tom, I couldn't resist!

 Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
 Jetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2620 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted Wed Oct 10 2012 05:36:08 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

 Quoting Novice (Thread starter):I understand that the 15 degrees must be measured from the horizon though what does the 3 degrees per second be measured from and what does it mean?

Pitch angle and rate are as indicated by the pitch scale on the PFD. There is no pitch rate indication, but to achieve 15 deg at 3 deg/sec will take 5 seconds. The pitch target is displayed on the PFD and the pilot will aim to get there smoothly in about 5 seconds. The exact pitch rate doesn't matter, the point is to achieve a steady and consistent pitch rate. Too fast or erratic and you risk a tail strike. Too slow and you may compromise terrain clearance and will be accelerating rapidly through V2.

The pitch target isn't always 15 deg though. It depends on the aircraft type and the takeoff conditions.

 The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4300 posts, RR: 34 Reply 5, posted Wed Oct 10 2012 11:33:02 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

 Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 4):The pitch target isn't always 15 deg though. It depends on the aircraft type and the takeoff conditions.

Bingo. It was routine on the 757 to end up at 20 degrees nose up when somewhat light. On a very heavy 737-800 you'll be going to about 13.

 Chicks dig winglets.
 tb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2039 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted Wed Oct 10 2012 11:52:35 UTC (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4959 times:

 Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 4):The pitch target isn't always 15 deg though. It depends on the aircraft type and the takeoff conditions.

And on the 727, we have a target pitch for 3 engines and 2 engines figured for every takeoff. Depending on weight and takeoff flap config it can vary from 7 to 22 degrees for 2 and 3 engine. Our rotation is a little slower at 2-3 degrees per second then after liftoff you just pitch for V2+10 to 1000', target is a just kind of a guide to get you close to it.

 Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 Novice From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 90 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted Mon Oct 15 2012 11:45:49 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

 Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
 Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):It's from *horizontal*, not the horizon. If you're anywhere with terrain features, 15 degrees above horizontal will be less than 15 degrees above the horizon.

Just to make this clear then, the horizon is where the earth and sky met therefore where the top of the terrain and the sky met. So for instance going by that definition if there where a mountain in front of the runway, the horizon viewed by the pilot on the runway would be a much higher angle/degrees than the 15 degrees measured from the horizontal?

Also is horizontal measured from the longitudinal axises of the plane?

 thegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2639 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted Mon Oct 15 2012 18:02:18 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

 Why is this done so quickly? Gives that uncomfortable moment when you are pushing into your seat just as you take off.
 tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 9, posted Mon Oct 15 2012 20:26:16 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

 Quoting Novice (Reply 7):Just to make this clear then, the horizon is where the earth and sky met therefore where the top of the terrain and the sky met.

Yes.

 Quoting Novice (Reply 7):So for instance going by that definition if there where a mountain in front of the runway, the horizon viewed by the pilot on the runway would be a much higher angle/degrees than the 15 degrees measured from the horizontal?

Whether it's higher than 15 degrees depends on the terrain. But yes, the horizon (where the earth meets the sky) would be at a higher angle than horizontal. As a result, 15 degrees above horizontal would be less than 15 degrees above the horizon.

 Quoting Novice (Reply 7):Also is horizontal measured from the longitudinal axises of the plane?

Horizontal is defined relative to the geoid (approximately mean sea level). The pitch angle is measured between horizontal and, usually, the plane's longitudinal axis. There are a couple of instances in flight dynamics when you measure relative to the flight path and/or the stability axes (which generally aren't the same as the longitudinal axis) but those aren't presented to the pilot.

 Quoting thegeek (Reply 8):Why is this done so quickly?

3 degrees per second isn't quick...it would take 2 minutes to go through a full revolution at that rate. Put another way, it's half the speed that a sweep second hand moves.

 Quoting thegeek (Reply 8):Gives that uncomfortable moment when you are pushing into your seat just as you take off.

That's not caused directly by the rotation rate...the normal acceleration just due to pitch rate is pretty small. The vast majority of the normal acceleration bump at rotation is caused by the AoA increase of the wing increasing lift and accelerating the aircraft upwards.

Tom.

 thegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2639 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted Mon Oct 15 2012 21:12:26 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

 Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):The vast majority of the normal acceleration bump at rotation is caused by the AoA increase

Am I missing something? AoA increase = rotation rate given a level trajectory on the runway.

 BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 16692 posts, RR: 28 Reply 11, posted Mon Oct 15 2012 23:06:30 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

 Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):Am I missing something?

The distinction between forces. What Tom is saying, I think, is that the normal force you feel is less the centripetal force from the pitch rate and more due to the wings producing progressively more lift as alpha increases.

 Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 12, posted Tue Oct 16 2012 07:34:27 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

 Quoting thegeek (Reply 10):Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9): The vast majority of the normal acceleration bump at rotation is caused by the AoA increase Am I missing something? AoA increase = rotation rate given a level trajectory on the runway.

Yes. The point is that the vertical force you feel isn't the centripedal force due to rotation rate, it's force due to vertical acceleration from lift. Changing rotation rate won't make much change to the vertical acceleration you feel (it will change how fast that force comes on, i.e. the third derivative or jitter).

 Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):The distinction between forces. What Tom is saying, I think, is that the normal force you feel is less the centripetal force from the pitch rate and more due to the wings producing progressively more lift as alpha increases.

Exactly. Centripedal force due to pitch rate is very small compared to vertical acceleration due to lift.

Tom.

 Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted Tue Oct 16 2012 13:20:16 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4070 times:

 Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):Exactly. Centripedal force due to pitch rate is very small compared to vertical acceleration due to lift.

It is even negative in aft section of the aircraft and you still feel the acceleration in the vertical.

 The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 thegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2639 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted Tue Oct 16 2012 17:03:33 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

 My point was that isn't the peak AoA higher than it would be with a slower rotation rate, perhaps starting earlier? I wasn't referring to the centripetal acceleration.
 tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 15, posted Tue Oct 16 2012 19:28:33 UTC (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

 Quoting thegeek (Reply 14): My point was that isn't the peak AoA higher than it would be with a slower rotation rate, perhaps starting earlier?

Maybe, but given that there's not much lag between AoA, lift increase, and vertical acceleration change and that the pitch rate is pretty slow, I can't see it being very significant. The angle you rotate to is going to make a lot more difference than the rate you rotate at.

Tom.

 Top Of Page Change Forum... Civil Aviation Travel, Polls & Prefs Tech/Ops Aviation Hobby Aviation Photography Photography Feedback Trip Reports Military Av & Space Non-Aviation Site Related LIVE Chat Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Boeing Rate Of Climb?
 Username: No username? Sign up now! Password: Forgot Password? Be reminded. Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
• Tech/Ops related posts only!
• Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
• No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
• No hostile language or criticizing of others.
• Do not post copyright protected material.
• Use relevant and describing topics.
• Check if your post already been discussed.
• Check your spelling!
• DETAILED RULES

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)

 Similar topics: More similar topics...
Calculation Of Rate Of Climb posted Wed Mar 22 2006 00:30:19 by Jetflyer
Rate Of Climb: A333 Vs A343 posted Sun Jan 8 2006 19:58:41 by HT
Rate Of Climb Versus Angle Of Climb posted Wed Feb 23 2005 16:13:58 by Kiwiineurope
Rate Of Climb posted Sun Jun 6 2004 09:38:15 by KBUF737
Positive Rate Of Climb Or Run Out Of Runway posted Sun Aug 26 2001 17:11:52 by Western727
Rate Of Climb posted Fri Sep 29 2000 23:04:32 by Ar747
What Is The Fuel Burn Rate Of B777-200LR/300ER posted Tue Apr 26 2011 08:44:03 by philippelouis1
How Can We Maintain A Constant Rate Of Descent? posted Mon Apr 19 2010 13:26:52 by KELPkid
B744 High Rate Of Descent posted Sat Apr 2 2005 13:57:56 by SevenHeavy
Take-off Rolls And Rate Of Acceleration? posted Sat Nov 22 2003 22:13:28 by Wardialer

 Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format