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Will Planes Get Brighter In The Future?  
User currently offlineusair330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 827 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9714 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01w8Yb5uS4

With almost all new cars having L.e.d light strips somewhere on the front. Is it possible that one day we might be looking into the sky and see planes as in the video link? Has anyone ever done this on a real plane?

[Edited 2012-10-19 21:14:59]

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9689 times:

I feel like if every plane were like this it would be a safety hazard for the pilots, it could mess with their night vision.

EDIT: A plane like that would look awesome though if it was life sized

[Edited 2012-10-19 21:28:25]


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9449 times:

Quoting usair330 (Thread starter):

No, I don't think so. Those led lights are pretty much for show or for use as running lights, they are not the main lights at night, at least the ones I have seen are not.

Now, we will definitely see all new planes shift to using LEDs instead of the old type as they are cheaper and cleaner to use, but I highly doubt we will ever see a mass of lights on planes. It seems 2-7 properly placed lights are enough for most planes today.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9217 times:

I dont think Airlines want to add any more costs. The lights they have now have been doing the job for a long time. Why change?

User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9177 times:

The 787 has LED lights, as do many biz jets- just not quite like your example....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_aEVmTa5TQ



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8887 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 4):

The 787 has LED lights, as do many biz jets- just not quite like your example....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_aEV...Ta5TQ

I only see the standard set of lights on all aircrafts, not just the 787. Was I missing something?


User currently offlineusair330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 827 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 day ago) and read 8712 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 4):
The 787 has LED lights, as do many biz jets- just not quite like your example...

Good video. You can tell the lights are LED by the way they flash. Would it be legal for a pilot to try and put more lights on an aircraft?


User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 23 hours ago) and read 8658 times:

Keep in mind, most lights on an aircraft have a specific function. Red wingtip=Left(port) Green wingtip=Right(Starboard)
Red flashing lights on top=Anti-collison. Bright clear lights at wing root/wingtip=landing(approach)/taxi lights.
The strobe lights are intended for low visibility conditions, however if an a/c is IMC (flight in clouds) the strobes reflect back at the a/c so most crew members will turn them off once they are in a cloud deck. Its been a while since I had give observation about this, but I believe I got it right.


JD CRP



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 20 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

LED's make poor point sources of light. Yes, such LED's are manufactured, but they require large heat sinks. When dimmer LED's are spread out around an area, the heat accumulation is much less.

What I could see happening is strips of LED's replacing point-source fixtures. So instead of a single strobe on each wingtip, there might be a strip of flashing LED's that wrap around the wingtip. Then again, at altitude the air is pretty cold and the heat accumulation for an LED strobe would be much less than for a continuous light, so it's possible that we won't see this.


User currently offlineusair330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 827 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 19 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
So instead of a single strobe on each wingtip, there might be a strip of flashing LED's that wrap around the wingtip.

Exactly what I had in mind.


User currently onlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 18 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 3):

I dont think Airlines want to add any more costs. The lights they have now have been doing the job for a long time. Why change?

If LED lights were to be installed they would not have to be changed out as frequently but as mentioned, they would need a heat source at altitude.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinecomairguycvg From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

I've always thought it would be neat if they could light up the International Space Station like that with LED lights around the outline of all the solar panels. It may look like just a tiny pinpoint of light from the ground but would make spotting it at night a bit easier I bet.

User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 717 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Oh that would look amazing if it were done, just think a 747 lit up that way, but agreed seems like something for show

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 10):
If LED lights were to be installed they would not have to be changed out as frequently but as mentioned, they would need a heat source at altitude.

They do not need a heat source. They MAKE heat, especially when clustered closely together. LED's are very good at cold-temperature operations. In fact, the colder, the better. They even continue to operate in liquid nitrogen (although the color of the emitted light changes due to the fact that electrons move more quickly in semiconductors at cold temperatures).


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5487 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 1):

But, I thought LED lights are supposed to produce less glare and concentrate their light where needed. I notice some of the streets in my city have converted over to LED's. At first, when looking you think it's darker but actually the light is concentrated downward towards the street and visibility at night is much improved without the glare of the mercury vapor lights still in use. With the conventional mercury vapor lights, the light has more glare and you can be temporarilly blinded if you stare at them too long. That's not the case with LED's. And, the technology keeps evolving and they even become more efficient. I could imagine airliner tails illuminated with LED's. Also as with cars the red and amber lights can be LED's.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 14):
But, I thought LED lights are supposed to produce less glare and concentrate their light where needed.

LED's only have emission cones of 180° or less, but they can be mounted in such a way to provide complete coverage.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

You are not going to see strobes replaced by LED lights. They don't have the same impact and effect. Continuous light is harder to see than a strobe.

As far as LED lights are concerned, Boeing is putting LED lights on its airplanes for their landing lights. Boeing has LED landing lights for the 787, 747-8 and also the 737NG. I believe LED is also being used for the tail decoration light.

LED lights work well for high intensity directional light. Pilots need additional light for navigating the airport on the ground. This is where the lighter weight and higher intensity light technology is useful. For the purpose of seeing an airplane from a long distance away, LED isn't going to help much.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6070 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4996 times:

If you do the lighting right, I'm sure it can still be done without much problem to the pilots. Look at cruise ships: They follow international navigational light standards (Left red, Right green, stern white,) and are also lit all over, but they are dark where it counts---near the bridge.


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4978 times:

Quoting usair330 (Reply 6):
Would it be legal for a pilot to try and put more lights on an aircraft?

As long as it didn't interfere with the other lights or other pilots' vision, yes. But all the current lights have specific functions so you need to prove that your new lights don't interfere with the existing functions. That means you automatically can't use red, white, or green. Other colours would have to be distinct enough to not be confusing. And every extra light means more power and more weight.

Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 11):
I've always thought it would be neat if they could light up the International Space Station like that with LED lights around the outline of all the solar panels. It may look like just a tiny pinpoint of light from the ground but would make spotting it at night a bit easier I bet.

It already reflects a hell of a lot of sunlight (when it's in the sun)...that will be brighter than anything they can do with LEDs.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
You are not going to see strobes replaced by LED lights.

The 787 already replaced the strobes with white blinking LEDs.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):

You are not going to see strobes replaced by LED lights. They don't have the same impact and effect. Continuous light is harder to see than a strobe.

They have already been replaced on the 787. And actually, LED's make excellent strobes. A 10MHz pulsed LED has been developed, so they are actually capable of turning on and off far more quickly than any other sort of light except a laser.

It just has to be a very bright LED. But those are available these days.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

LED headlights are now available on several of the more expensive Audi models. They were introduced first on the R8 sports car in 2008.

Related Audi website:
http://www.audileds.com/


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
You are not going to see strobes replaced by LED lights.

The 787 already replaced the strobes with white blinking LEDs.

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to continuous illumination LEDs like in the video that was referenced replacing a blinking/flashing light.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2155 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Then again, at altitude the air is pretty cold and the heat accumulation for an LED strobe would be much less than for a continuous light, so it's possible that we won't see this.

It's such a pain when even though most of the time these lights will be operating at temperature is bellow freezing, designers still have to design for them to operate on the tarmac in Riyadh under the mid-day sun.   

Are not the navigation and anti-collision lights on all the time day or night?

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2155 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
LED's are very good at cold-temperature operations.

Good to know. I bought some LED's from Costco and put them in my Fridge and Freezer. Wasn't worried about the energy consumption of the light but figured that having spent energy cooling the air in there, why warm it up with an incandescent light bulb?

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4653 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):

It's such a pain when even though most of the time these lights will be operating at temperature is bellow freezing, designers still have to design for them to operate on the tarmac in Riyadh under the mid-day sun.

Your point is true for everything outside the pressure vessel. IT may be a challenge with lights, but if you want to see a real challenge, try to seal the rod end of a hydraulic flight controls actuator at 3000psi that works from -80C up to 60C. There's a reason why you see streaks behind the aileron, elevator and rudder actuators. It is virtually impossible to make things work perfectly in those temperature extremes on an airplane.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 25, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
Are not the navigation and anti-collision lights on all the time day or night?

I can only speak for general aviation but you only need the beacon during the day. The nav lights are only required at night. The strobes are recommended on in flight (especially at night), except in clouds where they reflect back and make visibility worse.

Again, I can only speak for general aviation.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 26, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
It's such a pain when even though most of the time these lights will be operating at temperature is bellow freezing, designers still have to design for them to operate on the tarmac in Riyadh under the mid-day sun.

Yes, but only for an hour at a time, tops. And the sorts of temps encountered even in those conditions aren't high enough to shut off an LED.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 27, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
I can only speak for general aviation but you only need the beacon during the day.

For airlines they almost universally use the beacon to indicate to the ground crew that they're starting engines, so you'll see beacons on in the daytime. This isn't usually relevant for GA, where there's little/no ground crew and it's darn obvious when the engine is turning.

Tom.


User currently offlinecomairguycvg From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
It already reflects a hell of a lot of sunlight (when it's in the sun)...that will be brighter than anything they can do with LEDs.

Right but I was talking strictly about when it's completely dark with no sunlight reflecting off of it at all.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 29, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
I can only speak for general aviation but you only need the beacon during the day.

For airlines they almost universally use the beacon to indicate to the ground crew that they're starting engines, so you'll see beacons on in the daytime. This isn't usually relevant for GA, where there's little/no ground crew and it's darn obvious when the engine is turning.

Obvious once it has started yes. However it is not that obvious that it is about to start. Many instructors recommend leaving the beacon switch on at all times. That way as soon as you flip on the electrics the beacon goes on, indicating the aircraft may start the engine(s) soon.

Also lots more people walking around GA planes that have (seemingly) little or no training or understanding of safety.   You don't yell "clear prop" for nothing...


Btu we were talking of in flight. GA will use the beacon (if so equipped) at all times. The strobes can substitute if the beacon is inop.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4054 times:
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Anti collision (beacon or strobe) lights are required for basic day VFR flight. Obviously they can be turned off if it interferes with flying the airplane (in a cloud) the light in question can be turned off- but it must work.

On the cirrus I fly it means that the the strobe must work for day and night, on a Cessna, during the day, you can get away with only a beacon working. At night the strobes must work for all airplanes, and the landing light must work for all aircraft used for hire (again there is the caveat of the lights interfering with a pilots ability to function).



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