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Flight Balance With One Wing Lost.  
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4254 times:

Hi guys and gals,

Did a search and found nada so there for this thread.

I watching NGC's Air Crash Investigation about Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101, and yeah, I know, you need both wings to fly (except the Israeli F-15 in '94?). But what happens when a wing breaks off? Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?

//Poadrim


Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

If a wing seperates, the remaining wing will have no opposing moment on the opposite side of the airplane, so it will roll up and over the top...


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9463 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Thread starter):
But what happens when a wing breaks off? Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?

If you'd like to see a visual of this happening, take a look at the crash videos of the FedEx MD-11 in NRT or the United DC-10 in Sioux City. In both crashes, the landing gear failed, which caused the spar to break. This separated one wing from the airplane, which caused the rest of the airplane to roll over until the other wing contacted the ground and was upside down.

In this video you can clearly see what happens when the left main landing gear fails and the wing spar breaks. The other wing which is still achieving lifts causes the airplane to roll until it is upside down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6cMK9LUnzI



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

//Poadrim



Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4142 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

Maybe this will help you visualize it:

At the moment immediately prior to your wing separation, each wing is lifting its own weight, plus half the weight of the rest of the airplane (opposite wing excluded). When the wing separates, the opposite wing is now lifting its own weight, plus trying to lift the full weight of the rest of the airplane (minus the separated wing). Since the lift is horribly off center, the plane flips over.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9463 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

If you remember free body diagrams from physics class, the wing is creating a net force up, while the fuselage is a net force down. So while the airplane as a whole would fall out of the sky and go down, relative to the fuselage, the intact wing is going to go up and roll the airplane over.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Well then, thank you guys! Much appreciated help   


Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9463 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 6):
Well then, thank you guys! Much appreciated help

No problem. Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2291 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.

On a conveyor belt...
 Big grin

[Edited 2012-10-25 18:08:35]


KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinesaafnav From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 8):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.
On a conveyor belt...
[Edited 2012-10-25 18:08:35]
Quoting saafnav (Reply 9):
If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?

How fast would a helium balloon without wings have to move on a conveyor in order to takeoff   

And what if it has one wing on the RH side 

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting saafnav (Reply 9):
If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?

Point taken, I should have known that.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):

No problem. Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.
Quoting moose135 (Reply 8):
On a conveyor belt...
Big grin
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
How fast would a helium balloon without wings have to move on a conveyor in order to takeoff

And what if it has one wing on the RH side

/Lars

I LOL'd, really. Thanks!  



Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19277 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Thread starter):
Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedLTEbhjJ0

Evidently, it will flip up and then rapidly assume a negative AOA and then stall.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Flip up and over before gravity takes over.

On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19277 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

That and the fact that most of the aircraft was actually part of the lifting surface.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

In addition to what DocLightning said (the aircraft was nowhere close to losing 50% of its lifting surfaces), the F-15 also has augmented stability in the flight controls. This helps to reject even very large disturbances, like significant asymmetric lift. At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19277 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
In addition to what DocLightning said (the aircraft was nowhere close to losing 50% of its lifting surfaces), the F-15 also has augmented stability in the flight controls. This helps to reject even very large disturbances, like significant asymmetric lift. At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

That's what I heard. It wasn't until he got out of the cockpit that he saw what had happened.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

Usully the case.....reminds me of a B732 lading back after a hydraulic failure only to realise on ground that the caue was a loss of a MW along with the brake, broken at the axle  



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

And he wasn't able to counter the loss of a wing until he used afterburner.. an option no airliner (anymore) has. So it was partly the fact that the F-15's flat underbelly contributes a good amount of lift, partly that he used afterburner to power thru it, and partly that he wasn't aware the wing was gone. He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 18):
he wasn't aware the wing was gone. He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.

I'm sure such a situation would never have been simulated before too on the type ever.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19277 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2859 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 18):
He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.

Also an option that no airliner has...

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
I'm sure such a situation would never have been simulated before too on the type ever.....

I'm wondering how one would go about rendering such a simulation accurately.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2247 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):

Wind tunnel?


Perhaps it could work with a really slow aircraft (a glider?) and a ludicrous amount of sideslip...

Never mind maneuverability.



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 21):
Perhaps it could work with a really slow aircraft (a glider?) and a ludicrous amount of sideslip...

I would not think so. You still have all weight on one side and all lift on the other. Sideslip wont help you with that.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2247 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 22):

Hm, and how about using full *upward* flaps deflection on the first few feet of the wing (measured from the glider's body), and normal downward deflection of the flaps on the rest of the wing? Though, you need to shift the pivot point into the wing, away from the fuselage...

...well, there has already been the Blohm & Voss 141...



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
That and the fact that most of the aircraft was actually part of the lifting surface.

That and the fact that the missing wing exposed the ungodly huge elevator behind it to free airflow. Those things respond differentially to roll command (which would be at or near the stop...) - I'm sure he was getting a good bit of lift out of the elevator on the wingless side.


25 Larshjort : If your ailerons were big enough it could probably work. But they would need to be big. The outboard wing would have to creat the same negative lift
26 MD-90 : Well there were a few SSTs back in the day...
27 Post contains links sprout5199 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsQcdTBwgKU Watch what happens to the Skyhawk. This shows what happens when you lose a wing. Dan in Jupiter
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