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Flight Balance With One Wing Lost.  
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

Hi guys and gals,

Did a search and found nada so there for this thread.

I watching NGC's Air Crash Investigation about Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101, and yeah, I know, you need both wings to fly (except the Israeli F-15 in '94?). But what happens when a wing breaks off? Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?

//Poadrim


Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

If a wing seperates, the remaining wing will have no opposing moment on the opposite side of the airplane, so it will roll up and over the top...


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Thread starter):
But what happens when a wing breaks off? Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?

If you'd like to see a visual of this happening, take a look at the crash videos of the FedEx MD-11 in NRT or the United DC-10 in Sioux City. In both crashes, the landing gear failed, which caused the spar to break. This separated one wing from the airplane, which caused the rest of the airplane to roll over until the other wing contacted the ground and was upside down.

In this video you can clearly see what happens when the left main landing gear fails and the wing spar breaks. The other wing which is still achieving lifts causes the airplane to roll until it is upside down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6cMK9LUnzI



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

//Poadrim



Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

Maybe this will help you visualize it:

At the moment immediately prior to your wing separation, each wing is lifting its own weight, plus half the weight of the rest of the airplane (opposite wing excluded). When the wing separates, the opposite wing is now lifting its own weight, plus trying to lift the full weight of the rest of the airplane (minus the separated wing). Since the lift is horribly off center, the plane flips over.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

If you remember free body diagrams from physics class, the wing is creating a net force up, while the fuselage is a net force down. So while the airplane as a whole would fall out of the sky and go down, relative to the fuselage, the intact wing is going to go up and roll the airplane over.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4015 times:

Well then, thank you guys! Much appreciated help   


Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 6):
Well then, thank you guys! Much appreciated help

No problem. Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2240 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.

On a conveyor belt...
 Big grin

[Edited 2012-10-25 18:08:35]


KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinesaafnav From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Reply 3):
Aight, thank you. But some how it's seams more logic that the weight of the remaining wing vs. the life momentum should in best case stay level(I know it don't, but still)

If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 8):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.
On a conveyor belt...
[Edited 2012-10-25 18:08:35]
Quoting saafnav (Reply 9):
If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?

How fast would a helium balloon without wings have to move on a conveyor in order to takeoff   

And what if it has one wing on the RH side 

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4
User currently offlinePoadrim From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting saafnav (Reply 9):
If the weight of the wing would outweigh the lift, then there is really no point in having a wing?

Point taken, I should have known that.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):

No problem. Just think of the wing as a helium balloon.
Quoting moose135 (Reply 8):
On a conveyor belt...
Big grin
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
How fast would a helium balloon without wings have to move on a conveyor in order to takeoff

And what if it has one wing on the RH side

/Lars

I LOL'd, really. Thanks!  



Good judgment comes from experience. Good experience comes from someone else's bad judgment.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18676 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Quoting Poadrim (Thread starter):
Does the wing, that is still attached, flip upward due to the increased lift on the side with the wing or down due to the increase weight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedLTEbhjJ0

Evidently, it will flip up and then rapidly assume a negative AOA and then stall.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Flip up and over before gravity takes over.

On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18676 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

That and the fact that most of the aircraft was actually part of the lifting surface.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

In addition to what DocLightning said (the aircraft was nowhere close to losing 50% of its lifting surfaces), the F-15 also has augmented stability in the flight controls. This helps to reject even very large disturbances, like significant asymmetric lift. At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18676 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
In addition to what DocLightning said (the aircraft was nowhere close to losing 50% of its lifting surfaces), the F-15 also has augmented stability in the flight controls. This helps to reject even very large disturbances, like significant asymmetric lift. At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

That's what I heard. It wasn't until he got out of the cockpit that he saw what had happened.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
At least annecdotally, the pilot in that case had no idea that the damage was as bad as it was until after he landed.

Usully the case.....reminds me of a B732 lading back after a hydraulic failure only to realise on ground that the caue was a loss of a MW along with the brake, broken at the axle  



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
On the IAF F15 story.....was the loss of wing imbalance countered by the skill of the pilot using thrust as a compensation....amazing feat.....

And he wasn't able to counter the loss of a wing until he used afterburner.. an option no airliner (anymore) has. So it was partly the fact that the F-15's flat underbelly contributes a good amount of lift, partly that he used afterburner to power thru it, and partly that he wasn't aware the wing was gone. He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 18):
he wasn't aware the wing was gone. He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.

I'm sure such a situation would never have been simulated before too on the type ever.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18676 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2772 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 18):
He has said that had he knew the extent of the damage, he would've bailed.

Also an option that no airliner has...

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
I'm sure such a situation would never have been simulated before too on the type ever.....

I'm wondering how one would go about rendering such a simulation accurately.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2035 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2705 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):

Wind tunnel?


Perhaps it could work with a really slow aircraft (a glider?) and a ludicrous amount of sideslip...

Never mind maneuverability.



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 21):
Perhaps it could work with a really slow aircraft (a glider?) and a ludicrous amount of sideslip...

I would not think so. You still have all weight on one side and all lift on the other. Sideslip wont help you with that.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2035 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 22):

Hm, and how about using full *upward* flaps deflection on the first few feet of the wing (measured from the glider's body), and normal downward deflection of the flaps on the rest of the wing? Though, you need to shift the pivot point into the wing, away from the fuselage...

...well, there has already been the Blohm & Voss 141...



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
That and the fact that most of the aircraft was actually part of the lifting surface.

That and the fact that the missing wing exposed the ungodly huge elevator behind it to free airflow. Those things respond differentially to roll command (which would be at or near the stop...) - I'm sure he was getting a good bit of lift out of the elevator on the wingless side.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2584 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 23):

Hm, and how about using full *upward* flaps deflection on the first few feet of the wing (measured from the glider's body), and normal downward deflection of the flaps on the rest of the wing? Though, you need to shift the pivot point into the wing, away from the fuselage...

...well, there has already been the Blohm & Voss 141...

If your ailerons were big enough it could probably work. But they would need to be big. The outboard wing would have to creat the same negative lift as the fuselage provides with the inboard wing section having to create twice the amount of lift normally produced by two whole wings.

And the Bv 141 still had a wing on each side of the fuselages.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Also an option that no airliner has...

Well there were a few SSTs back in the day...


User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsQcdTBwgKU

Watch what happens to the Skyhawk. This shows what happens when you lose a wing.

Dan in Jupiter


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