Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
United 767 Nav Failure?  
User currently offlineavantime From New Zealand, joined Apr 2010, 1 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6693 times:

Just came across this on Avweb:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/A...bInsider_iPadBailout_207584-1.html

Quote:
Incident one occurred in August on a westbound United Boeing 767 from San Francisco to Hawaii. A pilot-trained passenger happened to notice that three hours out, the airplane made a slow 180-degree turn back toward the west coast. Shortly thereafter, a PA from the flight deck said that the aircraft had lost all navigational capability. The crew had declared an emergency, climbed to 34,500 feet for additional separation and was aiming for California. It eventually was assigned a hard altitude and landed in San Francisco without incident. As far as I know, the incident didn't make it into the news cycle. Our correspondent told us she spoke to the crew, who said they navigated home with a whiskey compass and an iPad…in a multi-million dollar airplane with a half-million dollar glass panel. All the better reason to keep a basic text on your iPad refreshing your memory of northerly compass turning error.


Can anyone here shed some more light on this incident? It looks pretty serious and I can't find any more info about this on the internet.

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5658 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6678 times:

A triple IRS failure? Plus a dual GPS failure? Plus a triple VOR failure (when in close to the coast)? Dual ADF failure? Unless they lost all 4 screens and their RDMI's, I just can't see that happening.

The power failure that would cause all those problems would be noticed in the back.

Methinks there was more, or more probably, less to this story.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6657 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

There coud be more to the story but does anybody know what plane it was?? just for Grins I could check the records but it's now November and that would be in long term history from August.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17185 posts, RR: 66
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass. 


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Three hours out - the plane would be beyond range of VOR or ADF stations.

User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1652 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6548 times:

Time to reissue sextons and teach pilots how to shoot stars!


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5658 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6424 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Three hours out - the plane would be beyond range of VOR or ADF stations.

Yes, but IRS (3ea) & GPS (2ea) are not affected.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6402 times:

3 hrs out? heck they were closer to Hawaii! Yeah I know the continent is bigger.  

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4782 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

Sounds like BS to me.


They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6200 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 5):

Time to reissue sextons and teach pilots how to shoot stars!

Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?  



A landing EVERYONE can walk away from, is a good landing.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5658 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?


The DC8 had a sextant hole. The classic jumbos had a hole that was called the smoke evacuation port but the urban mythology amongst the maintenance folks is that is could also be used to take sightings.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5162 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6151 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
The DC8 had a sextant hole.

Some of our older arctic B737s had a sextant hole, and those "arctic trained" had to use it on check rides. They also had an Astro Compass mount on the F/O's window!

Someone put a vacuum hose in one aircraft. One end would fit through the hole, the other end was used to clean out the cockpit!

Both an Astro Compass and a Sextant would have come in real handy if this B767 really did lose all navigation capability!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6002 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?

Nope. No way you could do star shoot from one   They are there because the FAA felt the old Boeing section 41 didn't have very good visibility in the traffic pattern while turning...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass.

Yikes...wonder if 767 captains and FO's practice compass turns in the sim  Wow!



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1655 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.

Maybe they had something similar to this happen:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...208X05844&ntsbno=NYC96IA116&akey=1



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4782 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):

They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.

Maybe they had something similar to this happen:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...key=1

They may have had any number of problems !


Until any further information is released (if it is) speculation is just that.


My point is, the loss of all navigational aids is highly unlikely.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17185 posts, RR: 66
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5670 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass.

Yikes...wonder if 767 captains and FO's practice compass turns in the sim  


Well, I suppose UNOS and ANDS still apply. 



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSKC From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 7):
3 hrs out? heck they were closer to Hawaii!

Maybe geographically, but quite possibly not closer when factoring in headwinds. May not have passed their equal time point, thus it was quicker to turn around and head back than to continue.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

Yes I know but as a rule it's about 5 hrs from the coast. Flew it last week, flying it again this afternoon.

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5658 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Quoting avantime (Thread starter):
Can anyone here shed some more light on this incident? It looks pretty serious and I can't find any more info about this on the internet.

I'm a skeptic on this incident. So, I looked at some prints and tried to make 3ea IRS fail and both GPS fail without letting the people in the back know (i.e. dual IDG failure, with a failure of the standby buss) and I can't do it.

I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.

I tend to agree with you fr8mech.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Seems very difficult to believe considering the range of navigation equipment available on the B767.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Seems very difficult to believe considering the range of navigation equipment available on the B767.

I wonder if they still carry an ADF receiver, as NDB's have been decomissioned by the droves here in the US. I realize that NDB's are still pretty common overseas, but even when NDB's were still fairly common in the US, in general aviation planes, if you had a GPS onboard, it was much more convienient and simpler to navigate using GPS overlay, especially when IFR.

If you have an ADF receiver, you can at least home in on a powerful AM radio station...

I know that other long range navigation systems (like Omega/VLF and LORAN) have been supplanted by GPS and GPS alone (well, with IRS as a backup on an airliner).

Once the aircraft was within ~130 miles of the US coast, the navigation system woud have started to pick up VOR/DME (assuming that much was operable...).



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
The DC8 had a sextant hole.

Sextant in use on a DC-8.

http://www.nicolamarras.it/calcolatoria/nav/dc8-sextant.jpg


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

Quoting SKC (Reply 17):
Maybe geographically, but quite possibly not closer when factoring in headwinds. May not have passed their equal time point, thus it was quicker to turn around and head back than to continue.

Without oceanic navigation ability, the chances of finding Hawaii are remote. However head back to the east and you will certainly find land.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
I wonder if they still carry an ADF receiver, as NDB's have been decomissioned by the droves here in the US.

Not too many NDBs in the Pacific, so it's a moot point. But I'd be surprised if ADFs had been removed.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm a skeptic on this incident. So, I looked at some prints and tried to make 3ea IRS fail and both GPS fail without letting the people in the back know (i.e. dual IDG failure, with a failure of the standby buss) and I can't do it.

What about a loss of power to the EFIS displays, so even if the IRS and GPS were functional they wouldn't be any use to steer by. I remember a 757 that happened to in Europe many years ago, but I forget the cause. They don't like heat, an equipment cooling failure could take them out.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.

Maybe it was the iPad the report mentioned they navigated with that caused the problems.  



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
25 longhauler : That's not a DC-8 .... VC-10 maybe?
26 fr8mech : I thought about that. In fact, if this is true, it's the most likely scenario. I believe the 4 screens all live on at least 3 different busses. Very
27 Jetlagged : But it has happened to at least one 757. That wasn't over an ocean so radio navigation was still possible. I forget the cause, but it was back when g
28 Max Q : As unlikely as that is you would still have a course to steer by referring to the legs page of the FMC computer. And if ADF is fitted you can steer t
29 rfields5421 : While I agree in principle - what about airline SOP. At which point does United SOP consider the navigation system unreliable. When one IRS disagrees
30 zeke : What about the QF 744 incident into BKK ? A fault with the water drain in the galley caused water to go over the avionics, getting rid basically all
31 fr8mech : I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying that it's highly unlikely. And, it would require multiple failures. And, chances are the folks in the back
32 rfields5421 : The more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to put this into the urban legend category. Not for any of the valid reasons both against or for t
33 tdscanuck : Didn't that just take down the AC buses? They would have still had hot battery, capt DC, and standby. That would give you some (though certainly not
34 zeke : UA only do 4 flights a day from SFO to HNL, it shuld be easy to check with flight aware to see if the 124 odd flights for teh month made it to HNL. U
35 Post contains images KELPkid : Seems like such a failure would be reportable to the FAA, NTSB, or both...that's been my thoughts throughout the day. In which case publicly availabl
36 longhauler : Not to mention ... on the inside, this alleged event would be HUGE, and every pilot of every B757/767 would be informed and warned ... and we haven't
37 COSPN : I dont think you have to be "pilot-trained" to notice the plane has done a 180 and heading back east...
38 zeke : Can I ask then what you were told about the S7 airlines 767 incident in October that had a similar loss of navigation and diverted Venice ? I suspect
39 Starlionblue : True. However most people would not notice.
40 Post contains images ptrjong : And today it suddenly does?
41 longhauler : I think it depends on the cause. I don't think the final report is issued yet. (If you mean the one a month ago, how did you hear about it?) There wa
42 CosmicCruiser : you bet it would be reported. nav failure in Class II airspace, absolutely.
43 zeke : For may incidents, there is never any report or investigation issued by the relevant air safety investigators. That is often left to the operator and
44 tdscanuck : That's true, but there's a huge swath of stuff in between what comes under the purview of the air safety investigators (which requires an actual or n
45 longhauler : I think you missed my point. I am not talking about any mundane "update" where procedures have changed, or responses where changed from CHECK to SET.
46 zeke : No I did not. For a while no one had information about AF447, and all sorts of speculation was about. When more information was available, it was app
47 longhauler : One of the biggest changes was the introduction of the "Loss of Reliable Airspeed" drill. It had always been an OEB, with a checklist. However, durin
48 tdscanuck : Yes. I've written those types of communications. The lawyers have no say in them whatsoever. One of the very first actions when an OEM suspects an is
49 zeke : Standard Airbus QRH has always had it as a QRH item, the memory items have always been there. Have a look at the AF447 report you can see the standar
50 rfields5421 : Over the decades it proved to be an unnecessary concern, and many airlines did not want the extra expense and extra maintenance requirements of the e
51 longhauler : I only used the A330 and B737 as an example, as it shows the point I was trying to make. When there are incidents of "unusual circumstances" airlines
52 tdscanuck : It's not an accident (or incident) but it is a reportable event. If it occured, the OEM would be obligated to report it to the FAA (assuming the OEM
53 zeke : No I do not think the PCU alone was at fault, they proved to be safe for years. It took exposure to certain conditions for it to occur. You are think
54 tdscanuck : To the FAA. Because the FAA requires it. For Boeing, it's called the Continued Operational Safety Program. I believe the FAA has something similar wi
55 longhauler : Does that mean therefore, that only those within an airline (or Governmental body) that are directly associated with that aircraft type would see the
56 Viscount724 : Caption said it was a DC-8. I guess it was wrong.
57 Post contains images longhauler : That one has six eyebrow windows, the DC-8 only two. I was guessing the VC-10 over the IL-62, as I remembered the VC-10 had the pull shades to cover
58 Fabo : That is a VC-10 all right. Il-62, completely different game. Plus I dont think it ever had a sextant hole.
59 tdscanuck : Yew. The normal chain of events for something like this is: 1) Airline notifies OEM of event 2) OEM assesses event for reportability, safety, prior r
60 Post contains links zeke : You must me talking about very minor things. For example you will see transmissions made by Airbus regarding AF447 not only had to get signed off int
61 tdscanuck : No. "Very minor things" don't meet the threshold for mandatory reporting. That was an actual accident; very different protocols involved. The situati
62 longhauler : I know this is merely anecdotal ... but I am bored here on a layover. Using the online tracking websites, I see that every UAL B767 that departed SFO
63 zeke : Hardly unprecedented when S7 and United (the earlier diversion I mentioned) had similar events recently. Also the avweb article actually was referrin
64 tdscanuck : Because the FAA requires it. I'm not sure how many times we're going to go around this circle. Only accidents and incidents have to be reported *by I
65 zeke : And all I ask is where ? Show me the FAA regulation/order that requires an operator to report maintenance defects to an OEM. The operators are requir
66 Post contains links tdscanuck : FAR 21.3, Reporting of Failures, Malfuctions, and Defects http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...t&node=14:1.0.1.3.9.1.11.3&idno=14 This part
67 26point2 : Funny what people will believe. These iPad-saved-the-day stories are ridiculous. Not sure if this has been mentioned....These events suposedly occurre
68 longhauler : This is something that also had my head scratching. Flight plans today are so accurate, it is eerie! I have left YYZ for a 10 hour flight to TLV, and
69 Jetlagged : Given the choice between either (a) trusting in winds aloft predictions (made several hours ago) plus dead reckoning, to aim at a group of islands or
70 Post contains images longhauler : I know this is all "what if" conjecture, and great cockpit puzzle during slow times, but ... my two cents, which is in absolutely no way correct. Toda
71 zeke : Yep That I agree with. Yep, all that you have to say is negative RVSM, they may give you a clearance to remain in RVSM airspace, or you may need to d
72 tdscanuck : I second zeke here...there's some subset of the aviation community that absolutely freaks out when you lose (or don't have) RVSM capability. ATC real
73 26point2 : True. Not a big thing if planning to enter RVSM airspace. I used to resort to this tactic before RVSM certification was common too. But suppose one i
74 zeke : I have never had an issue with this, just let ATC know and they can sort it out. I have lost some of my air data before in RVSM airspace in a very 3r
75 Jetlagged : I know this, but the islands themselves are still small compared to the surrounding ocean and to the alternative of the landmass of the USA. You may
76 longhauler : This question arises from time to time. At my airline, pilots are issued iPads for use in the cockpit at all times. There are reasons why this is all
77 Post contains links ha763 : Someone in the comments finally posted the flight number and day that this turn back happened. Flight UA989 SFO-KOA on Aug 27. http://flightaware.com/
78 HAWK21M : Makes sense.....Its covering every corner of what could go wrong.......& avoid it. On the topic.....What is the SOP on carriage of Portable LED R
79 longhauler : It is listed in the "other PEDs with nil or negligible radio transmission capabilities" category, in that they can be used any time other than taxi,
80 Post contains images KELPkid : Makes sense. Most LED flashlights operate on straight DC, and diodes aren't used as radio oscillators in any circuit I know of
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic United 767 Nav Failure?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
UAL 767 Dual Engine Failure posted Sun Mar 11 2001 02:01:13 by 16June01OCS
United/Continental Cabin Chimes posted Fri Oct 12 2012 16:47:18 by jrdioko
767-300ER Handling Implications Of Blended Winglet posted Mon Oct 8 2012 20:04:51 by JaggySnake
Thomson 767 Routes posted Wed Sep 26 2012 03:10:46 by nema
Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC posted Mon Sep 24 2012 10:57:00 by smartt1982
Engine Failure After Take-off posted Wed Sep 12 2012 11:11:15 by mawingho
United Airlines Flight Attendant Question posted Tue Aug 28 2012 06:26:05 by ryanrap1
United Flight Number Ranges... posted Sat Jul 21 2012 12:48:48 by IndustryInsider
How Strong Is The 767 Structure? posted Mon Jul 9 2012 12:35:27 by b767
Eng Failure/ Shutdown @ Cruise ALT posted Sun May 13 2012 12:09:55 by smartt1982

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format