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How Do You Read A Radar Screen  
User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9451 times:

Today I was looking at Flighware of LAX and I noticed that the colors GREEN and BLUE were used on flights, what does this colors mean? I also noticed that some flights did not have the Alt. or Speed being indicated but it had "estimate" on the flight. Does that mean the transponder is not working correctly?

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15727 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9478 times:

Flightaware does not use the same screen a controller would see, it's their own setup as far as I know.

Green flights appear to be flights in the area but not flying to or from the selected airport. Blue are flights going to or from the airport you're looking at, LAX in this case.

I don't believe that the data blocks are similar to what ATC uses either. The estimate probably just means that Flightaware doesn't get data for that flight. It's notoriously buggy so this is not a huge surprise, I'm sure the flight's transponder is fine.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9466 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I don't believe that the data blocks are similar to what ATC uses either.

Mostly not, though I do believe that the altitude and airspeed blocks are the same.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9469 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):

Our scopes are vastly different to what you see on the internet. And, they are mostly different in every country, sometimes with different systems at each centre.

Our typical data block has FlightID, Flight Level, Ground speed, vertical indicator (up/down arrow) and a vertical speed. We can usually see the squawk code too in place of the callsign with the push of a button.

On my current system I am able to select all of our mode S data for display on a datablock as well, that would be ModeS ID, IAS, current HDG, MCP Alt selected, barometric VS.



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 935 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 3):
MCP Alt selected

Can you actually see what alt is set in the MCP?



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlinePapaChuck From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

First of all, keep in mind that what you see on Flightaware is not valid radar data. The information you see is pooled from multiple sources and, for security reasons, is delayed by up to five minutes. The format mimics an ATC radar scope, but it is far from accurate.

When "estimate" is displayed, my guess would be that the flight isn't being tracked by the website yet, but based on the flight plan and whatever other data is available, is the website's best guess as to where the flight really is.

PC



In-trail spacing is a team effort.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6369 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

When I toured the ELP tracon years and years ago, I recall it being very siimilar to how FlightAware shows the world...the part you could never replicate is the "flight strip" system US controllers use. One cool thing, though, that you only get to see in a TRACON is when a controller asks a flight to IDENT, then their radar return turns bright on the scope. The controller told me the same thing happens if they start squawking 7700...


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
the part you could never replicate is the "flight strip" system US controllers use



Most U.S. controllers in larger approach controls don't use flight strips, it's all on the display and flight strips are a royal pain in the butt. IIRC, Atlanta TRACON was using flight strips a couple of years back, some places haven't used them for 30 years.

Flightaware does have some very creative aircraft types flying around from time to time.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 734 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9456 times:
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Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 7):
IIRC, Atlanta TRACON was using flight strips a couple of years back, some places haven't used them for 30 years.

from when i toured Indy Center last year they had the strips ready to go as back up and as a paper record, but the controller was really only focused on the computerized radar return. also the funny thing was that each controller could set up the general basics of the screen to their preferences (they were all a dark background with light radar returns, and optional sector boundaries.)



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
from when i toured Indy Cente



Center and TRACON, way different in how traffic is worked as well as paper work utilized.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 4):
Can you actually see what alt is set in the MCP?

Hi sorry for the late response. Yes, I can see the MCP selected level. I also select current HDG and IAS on my display as it makes director work easier!

I will get a screenshot for you!



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinetan1mill From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

To add to what others have said, Flight Aware only shows IFR traffic and not VFR, SVFR or VFR flight following. That being said, there are some IFR aircraft that do not appear due to national security (Military, Air Force 1...etc) or because their registrations have been blocked from public tracking for one reason or another.


Love many, Trust few, Always paddle your own canoe.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9458 times:

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 10):
Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 4):Can you actually see what alt is set in the MCP?
Hi sorry for the late response. Yes, I can see the MCP selected level

Specifically the altitude selected on the aircraft MCP or do you mean the assigned altitude?

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 10):
I will get a screenshot for you!

I'm intrigued.  


User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting tan1mill (Reply 11):

To add to what others have said, Flight Aware only shows IFR traffic and not VFR, SVFR or VFR flight following.

Most of the time when receiving VFR flight following out of a towered airport I can see my flight on FlightAware.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 12):
Specifically the altitude selected on the aircraft MCP

Definitely MCP altitude. My system has no facility for assigned level input. It is the level selected on the MCP of the aircraft transmitted to us over the Mode-S interface...



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2781 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9459 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting tan1mill (Reply 11):
Flight Aware only shows IFR traffic and not VFR, SVFR or VFR flight following

I think for the most part this is correct. However a couple weeks ago I filed a VFR flight plan and afterwords was able to pull up my aircraft and see all the trip information. I didn't use flight following either. I was wondering why I wasn't able to see it a couple days ago when I filed nearly the same exact flight plan. Maybe it was just another flightaware glitch and that is why I was able to see it.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinebarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 935 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9458 times:

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 14):
Definitely MCP altitude. My system has no facility for assigned level input. It is the level selected on the MCP of the aircraft transmitted to us over the Mode-S interface...

I'm sorry to be redundant, but this is something I was completely unaware of - and seems a bit odd. If we are at FL230 and get cleared to FL340 - and select FL340 in the MCP window - are you saying you would then see our ALT as FL340 even though we haven't left, and are still level at FL230?

If that's the case, how do you determine actual altitude versus assigned altitude?



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 810 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9464 times:
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Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 14):
Quoting David L (Reply 12):
Specifically the altitude selected on the aircraft MCP

Definitely MCP altitude. My system has no facility for assigned level input. It is the level selected on the MCP of the aircraft transmitted to us over the Mode-S interface...

I am going to have to research this. Not saying you are wrong at all. I just didn't/don't think that the Mode Control panel altitude select is part of the Mode S interface. Actual aircraft altitude yes, absolutely. I.E. the flight crew selects 25,000 ft. . You can see that? I'll have to revamp my knowledge if you can. I don't think you can just to put my 2 cents in. I'll check. I'm at home so I don't have access to the WDM but I would bet, am pretty sure, there is no input from the MCP to the Mode S. You may see the ACARS data or some such, but I don't think you would be able to see what is dialed in on the MCP. It is just not in the system. We'll see later this week. I don't go back to work until Thurs. Give me until then. I'll get back with you.


User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5408 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9459 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 15):
Maybe it was just another flightaware glitch and that is why I was able to see it.
Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 13):
Most of the time when receiving VFR flight following out of a towered airport I can see my flight on FlightAware.

I think the data is inconsistent in the FAA feed. There was a time when all VFR flight following showed on the feed, then it became inconsistent. The data format and sequence in the feed is also somewhat different for these flights (i.e. no from/to plan, just position messages), so each vendor (e.g. Flightaware) probably process them differently. Bottom line is that VFR flights are not guaranteed by the FAA in that feed AFAIK.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9462 times:

Quoting barney captain (Reply 16):
I'm sorry to be redundant, but this is something I was completely unaware of - and seems a bit odd. If we are at FL230 and get cleared to FL340 - and select FL340 in the MCP window - are you saying you would then see our ALT as FL340 even though we haven't left, and are still level at FL230?

If that's the case, how do you determine actual altitude versus assigned altitude?

We see both your Mode C level, and the MCP selected level. Our system does not allow for us to enter a cleared or assigned level.

I will upload a datablock I took a picture of.

Radar Data Block incl Mode S data


So in this datablock, we have the flight ID/Callsign, followed by the ground speed (47, which is 470 knots). Then on the second line, we have the current Mode C value, which is 306 (F306), vertical direction indicator (up arrow denoting a climb) and a calculated climb rate rate of 2400 fpm.

Then, in addition (on another line in our radar datablock), I will have the MCP (or Selected, hence the S370) alt, IAS, and HDG. You can see the MCP level set as F370, the IAS is 300KIAS (if I was an upper sector I could select Mach Number instead of IAS), and the HDG is 187.

Mode S data also includes a barometric vertical rate, but we do not have that displayed yet.

[Edited 2012-11-19 12:54:56]


A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 810 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9464 times:
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I really don't know what you are reading but it is not a selected altitude on the MCP. You can not see that. Period. It is not possible. The MCP does not interact with the Mode S or anything else other then the internal avionics of the aircraft. I just re-read the manuals on the 737 and it is not possible. There is no connection between the MCP and the transponder. Argue if you want but you are reading where the airplane is maybe??? You are not seeing the Mode Control Panels altitude, speed, decent/ascent rate, nothing off of the MCP. It just not get input to the transponder. Don't know what else to say. If you could see one thing you would see them all. Is he in HDG select, ALT select, If you could see one you should be able to see all others.

The FDR doesn't even record what selection is made on the MCP. Don't know what you are seeing but maybe it's something I don't know. It is not the MCP selection. Not debatable on the 737 anyway. It just does not give out that info..


User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 20):

I really don't know what you are reading but it is not a selected altitude on the MCP. You can not see that. Period. It is not possible. The MCP does not interact with the Mode S or anything else other then the internal avionics of the aircraft. I just re-read the manuals on the 737 and it is not possible. There is no connection between the MCP and the transponder. Argue if you want but you are reading where the airplane is maybe??? You are not seeing the Mode Control Panels altitude, speed, decent/ascent rate, nothing off of the MCP. It just not get input to the transponder. Don't know what else to say. If you could see one thing you would see them all. Is he in HDG select, ALT select, If you could see one you should be able to see all others.

The FDR doesn't even record what selection is made on the MCP. Don't know what you are seeing but maybe it's something I don't know. It is not the MCP selection. Not debatable on the 737 anyway. It just does not give out that info..

You are wrong. Sorry, but I have to just say it like that. Period.

It is the MCP selected altitude, and yes, it does come from 737's too.

I suggest you do some research on Mode-S and its extended squitter transmissions.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 20):
It is not the MCP selection. Not debatable on the 737 anyway. It just does not give out that info..

It is. It is debatable. And it does. I just showed you my radar screen target.

I can watch the MCP selected altitude being dialled up or down depending on how slowly it is changed by the cockpit crew.

[Edited 2012-11-19 14:55:12]

Mr tdi, please visit the following link

http://www.eurocontrol.int/articles/mode-s-operational-overview

And you scroll down to Mode S Enhanced Surveillance, and you can read for yourself from the Eurocontrol website what information is transmitted over Mode S.

I suggest you do some research on your 737 and its abilities.. I could theoretically even get Roll Angle....  


[Edited 2012-11-19 14:59:29]

[Edited 2012-11-19 15:00:42]


A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9463 times:

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 19):
Then, in addition (on another line in our radar datablock), I will have the MCP (or Selected, hence the S370) alt, IAS, and HDG. You can see the MCP level set as F370, the IAS is 300KIAS (if I was an upper sector I could select Mach Number instead of IAS), and the HDG is 187.

If in fact what you are telling us is correct, that is certainly another crosscheck of altitude verification beside the readback of a new altitude assignment. How long have you had this ability?

In the U.S. enroute environment IIRC the sector controller is entering the assigned altitude into the datablock. Don't work enroute so not 100% sure of that but I believe that's how it happens, certainly not from the MCP.

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 21):
I can watch the MCP selected altitude being dialled up or down depending on how slowly it is changed by the cockpit crew.

So the Mode-S squitter is updating every what 1/2 second?

I'm off to research a bit on the Mode-S squitter to make sure this isn't some sort of ADS-B transmitting from an A Spec box.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 810 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9471 times:
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I will say I give up, I wil not argue a point on the computer. The Boeing 737 MCP has no, zero, nada, nothing, input into any air traffic control system. I don't no how else to say it. It just does not. You may beleive it is true but it is just not!!!! I want an apology when you discover you are wrong. There is no input from the MCP. PERIOD.

User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 21):
It is not the MCP selection. Not debatable on the 737 anyway. It just does not give out that info..
Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 21):
It is. It is debatable. And it does.

Well, this is interesting.


25 tdscanuck : You may want to tell Boeing. *Some* 737 MCP's have no input to the transponder. But some do. It depends which specific 737 you're looking at. I'm sta
26 Post contains images speedbird128 : Sorry, I am all out of apologies for this matter I know what I know. I know what I deal with in the air traffic environment every day of my life. You
27 Post contains images speedbird128 : At least 1/2 sec. I will try find out what the output frequency of the data is. Effectively yes. Later on when we get the ability to digitise our CFL
28 Post contains images speedbird128 : OK so I did the research, and here are the published parameters as per the Eurocontrol page I linked to... These fields are obviously depending on the
29 Boeing77W : There is no question over this. They have the ability to see MCP selected altitude.
30 EGGD : Funnily enough, I have heard Air Traffic Control query whether a US based airline has understood their cleared altitude based on their MCP selection.
31 Post contains images David L : Well, I'll be... Speedbird128 1 - Sceptics 0.
32 Mir : It's our policy to set the final altitude as well in order to make sure that the aircraft climbs on schedule. VNAV will take care of the intermediate
33 Boeing77W : Where was this? I stand to be corrected by an ATCO but my understanding, and the way I and fellow colleagues operate is, that it would be more along
34 jgarrido : What Mir said is correct and a fairly common clearance* *Disclaimer: this applies in the USA. It's my understanding that there are some subtle differ
35 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Most interesting for sure. I'd love to know why the FAA ATC facilities that are using ADS-B as one of their sensors right now don't have the ability i
36 speedbird128 : I personally expect to see the MCP set to 6000 and not the constraints as the fms is programmed with "cross at" limitations... I personally would exp
37 EGGD : That is fair enough. I'm used to our SOP which states that we set the MCP to the altitude constraints and then reset it as we pass each one, we usual
38 My16sidedoffice : Wow, once we stepped away from the Flightaware part this thread became very informing. And where's that apology? LOL jk, too funny.
39 speedbird128 : Indeed - many ways to deal with this scenario... i am fully prepared to see both methods and if I am in doubt then i will just ask to make sure... ha
40 Post contains images atct : I would like to see Mode-S data on our scopes IAHFLYR! Wouldve saved me from a terrain deal...something IAH doesnt know much about Speedbird, Thats so
41 Post contains images IAHFLYR : What don't they know about, terrain or deals? I think they know plenty of both, just the terrelian is calls antennas/buildings. Excellent information
42 Speedbird128 : has been very quiet, not surprised in the slightest... Any info from your side?
43 IAHFLYR : Not enough yet to sort out and make sense if you know what I mean. I'll send another message and we shall see what that brings. My guess is the STARS
44 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Got some info on why you're seeing this stuff and U.S. controllers are not yet, very interesting to say the least. Maybe in NextGen? Yeah right!!! An
45 Speedbird128 : haha funny... I don't think he will be back in this thread. I think its a crying shame that a new system (a la NextGen) is being deployed without thi
46 IAHFLYR : My NextGen comment was directed toward what they're actually getting into some places next year call TAMR. I don't believe it will have the EHS capab
47 Speedbird128 : Yes. I'll pay more attention to which bizjets are EHS capable... I am sure I had a 7X this morning with EHS. Yes... I think that is one perceived dra
48 Speedbird128 : I would have to say yes for over 50%... I had the following non-scheduled in the last hour... C560 C56X DH8D C525 AT45 BE20 P180 C182 (Granted the tu
49 chrisMUC : You must understand that he has no time to apologize, he is busy checking that the world is flat and the sun is spinning around it...
50 Speedbird128 : To bring an old topic back from the grave, this year we will have an alarm implemented when the MCP selected level differs from the cleared level we
51 YYZatcboy : How would that work with conditional clearances such as the one described here: Would you enter 310 into the strip and then suffer the alarm the whole
52 Speedbird128 : Here in the middle of Europe our lower airspace is so fragmented, that in all my time here I have never issued a conditional. They get cleared to the
53 YYZatcboy : Makes sense. As a hypothetical though how could it be done? Do you have any insight?
54 Mir : In the case I described, FL310 would be the available level, the only difference being that ATC would need to descend the aircraft part of the way so
55 Speedbird128 : My point was in our congested and fragmented lower airspace (F200 and below) where this system is going to be put in use, the probability and opportu
56 YYZatcboy : Yes I think we all understand that. But as a matter of technology I think we are wondering how it COULD work, not how it does work in your particular
57 Speedbird128 : Sure thing sorry- I missed your question. Here in Europe we make use of what is called Mode S Enhanced Surveillance (I posted all the information up
58 onetogo : Interesting. This would never happen in the states/with the FAA. ALPA (the union for many airlines) and other pilot "associations" (in house unions, s
59 Speedbird128 : Umm I hate to break this to you, but much of this data is transmitted from US machines too... You just don't have an ATC radar system to use it. 99%
60 Post contains images onetogo : Umm hate to break it to you, but it's not from my airplane Some other part 121 pilots have come out pretty strongly stating that their types don't ei
61 Speedbird128 : Ok, if thats your opinion. What airplane do you fly? And do you fly it to Europe, specifically Germany, Holland, UK? Do you fly through Maastricht UA
62 Speedbird128 : Seeing as I work in Europe, that is what I base my knowledge on- even the US originating machines have EHS capability. Also, here in Europe there are
63 onetogo : I was referencing the United States (FAA) flying. Like I said, I fly a transport category aircraft for an airline, and we most certainly don't have th
64 Speedbird128 : Yes, I got that. And my point is US metal doesn't stay in the US. It flies to europe. And in order to do that it needs EHS ability, which I see on mo
65 onetogo : Every US based aircraft flies internationally? LOL.
66 Speedbird128 : Why the sarcasm? I didn't say that every N-plane flies internationally. If you have a problem with this then I give up. As I argued ad nauseum with 7
67 onetogo : Your experience is Eurocontrol. Enhanced mode S is a Eurocontrol thing only. In the states, the ground based equipment required for enhanced mode S d
68 Speedbird128 : Never worked for them. False. They pioneered its implementation, but the sure aren't the only ones using it... So why you pointlessly arguing? Just b
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