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Cones On The Wings: 787  
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

After reading some trip reports about UA 787 trips I have noticed in pictures that the wings look to be over coned... Is there a reason why there cones surrounding the whole wing while the plane is being serviced?


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35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

Safety cone purpose is to get the Attention of GSE operators/Aviation personnell about areas around the Aircraft.

Any pics of the description that you talk about.



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User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 870 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5091 times:

Are you referring to this thread?

United Boeing 787 Dreamliner Ride: IAH-LAX-IAH (by C767P Nov 10 2012 in Trip Reports)

The wings are most likely outlined for training purposes. It will give the rampers driving service vehicles etc. a sense of where the wings are since this is a brand new aircraft.



Cha brro
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 2):
Are you referring to this thread?

Yes, this is the thread.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 2):
The wings are most likely outlined for training purposes. It will give the rampers driving service vehicles etc. a sense of where the wings are since this is a brand new aircraft.

But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.



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User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinecomairguycvg From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

If I had a new baby like the 787, I would want as many cones around that sucker as I could get!

User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

On narrow body aircraft yes.
But on widebody aircraft you can drive under the wing with transporters as long as there is no can on it.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

Out here SOP forbids vehicles moving under the wings, unless its for a specific service purpose.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

On narrow body aircraft yes.
But on widebody aircraft you can drive under the wing with transporters as long as there is no can on it.

Nope. Certainly not at UA.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

It depends on the airline. But your right, most won't allow it, with the exception of fuelers or maintenance trucks. Japanese airlines are also very big about this. But I work for an airline where we are allowed to drive under the wings, between engines, and even under the fuselage with tugs and empty dollies. It makes unloading and loading the lower deck of a 747 much easier.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 9):
between engines

 Wow! A big no-no!!!   



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 791 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5082 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
Nope. Certainly not at UA.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
A big no-no!!!





Well now, an expert. Knows everything about everybody. Can't do this, Can't do that. I can drive wherever I want, as long as I don't hit the airplane. Watch the total encompassing statements. My golf cart can even drive under a wing. Oh my.! Don't know where you came up with this "most airlines" policy, but I have worked at a few and it is not a problem. Just don't hit the aircraft. It's like driving down the road, don't hit the folks in front or beside you. Not picking on you, just be real and speak of what you know. If you aren't sure/positive leave it alone unless you Caveat.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Don't know where you came up with this "most airlines" policy, but I have worked at a few and it is not a problem. Just don't hit the aircraft.

Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

Tom.


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 791 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5082 times:
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Tom: Come on now, why would you move under an aircraft if you are not a service truck? See what I'm saying here? Folks are bringing up crap that just does not happen. It's not like an Interstate is running under your aircraft??? Stupid is as Stupid does. Forest Gump once said....

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

   Thank you, Tom. You are spot on.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 791 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5082 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

Thank you, Tom. You are spot on

Oh, I absolutely agree, if your aren't a service truck or service cart you never drive under an aircraft. I go under to service oil or hydraulics or change a tire or fix a hydralic leak or what you would know nothing about. AS.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 15):

Wait, what?! Your post 13 doesn't jive with post 15. First you disagree with Tom and a couple posts later, you do a 180? I don't understand. Either you agree with Tom and I or you don't.   



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 13):

Tom: Come on now, why would you move under an aircraft if you are not a service truck? See what I'm saying here? Folks are bringing up crap that just does not happen.

I've seen plenty of people go under a wing tip to avoid driving all the way around. Less commonly, you'll see short vehicles try to go under tall aircraft to get to the next stall because it's shorter than going out and back in.

I agree, there's never any actual legitimate *need* to do it but it happens pretty frequently because of a combination of complacency, lack of training, and people thinking they know it's safe...right up until they hit the aircraft. I used to do nacelle and fuselage structural repair...lots and lots and lots of people hit the aircraft.

Tom.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 9):
But I work for an airline where we are allowed to drive under the wings, between engines, and even under the fuselage with tugs and empty dollies

Wow....This must be some Airline.......How many GSE Impact damages till date....  

Im not saying it has to be avoided,but I would think most Airlines would have that SOP in place, to reduce damage to an Expensive aircraft & unnecessary delays due AOG.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
How many GSE Impact damages till date

None related to this procedure, because it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it. There are antennas, but they are far enough out of the way to be not a problem. Between the engines is not a problem either because number 1 and 4 are too high, while the fuel truck is in the way for us to hit number 2 and 3. Keep in mind that I'm talking about a tug and two empty pallet dollies or a beltloader. Nothing else is allowed to go under the fuselage. You might say it is risky and dangerous, but it greatly decreases cargo movement times and makes approaching the loaders easier.

We used to have this airstart unit that had really short hoses on it. To park it properly, we had to drive that one between the wing gear and the number 3 engine. It was a tight fit but by using a marshaller, we never had an accident doing this.

Like it's been said, most airlines don't allow this, but for this company this is SOP. We usually completely offload and upload a 747-400F in about 2 to 2-1/2 hours.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it.

  . I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
Between the engines is not a problem either because number 1 and 4 are too high, while the fuel truck is in the way for us to hit number 2 and 3.

You may want to make sure everyone is briefed if you're carrier ever gets a 747-8F as those engine hangs a little lower   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5086 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):

I am not disagreeing with you and policy varies from airline to airline or service provider to service provider but at my airline the widebody that we service is a 767. We cone our wings and engines with two cones and PVC pipe running through the middle looking like a hurdle. So pretty much this with 36' cones:

So we have the engine pretty much "fortified" in these hurdles, if you can't see them then you should not be on the ramp. We are allowed to drive under the wing with empty transporters and the operator MUST drive away from the engine when offloading cans and MUST drive towards the engine when on loading cans. I know it varies from airline to airline but that is how we do it at my airline and station.

Now driving under a wing to cut corners, that is something worth getting pulled into the office over.



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User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.

These are the best pictures I can find on my computer. They don't show it as well so if you want I can snap some more this weekend if I see it happen. I found out today that our station is the only one allowed, and had to get a special approval from the airline to do so.

http://imgur.com/a/ZfUOr

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
We are allowed to drive under the wing with empty transporters and the operator MUST drive away from the engine when offloading cans and MUST drive towards the engine when on loading cans.

That's how it is for us too. In the pictures you can see the lower deck unloading, and the main deck loading containers.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5035 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

*Most*

At Delta, it is acceptable to drive under the wing of 757s and better. It is fine for widebodies and against policy for narrowbodies (exception being 757s). Not just service vehicles. Bag tugs too.

Of course, standard "buffer" rules always apply. If you have no business in the footprint you shouldn't be driving under the wing (some bag driver taking a shortcut to get from B07 to B03. If you are dropping or picking up bags for that a/c then "cutting away" (following the edge of the trailing edge) as to not drive under the wing isn't required. Wingtip cones are no placed on widebodies (and 757s) because of this. It is allowed. Everything else will have a wingtip hurdle cone and you should never drive under. Even if it means backing up after dropping your bag so that you can "cut away" and not drive under.

[Edited 2012-11-20 20:06:29]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
Like it's been said, most airlines don't allow this, but for this company this is SOP.

Whats the SOP then for driving motorised vehicles under the wings near the fuel vents...... 



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
Whats the SOP then for driving motorised vehicles under the wings near the fuel vents

The same as maintenance trucks or fuel trucks or any other vehicle driving under the wing.  


User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5072 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it.

  . I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.

This was our procedure at our station and this was for JAL 747s. I was tasked to update our local SOP and had to make sure it did not conflict with JAL's SOP. Our local SOP also had to be approved by JAL and we also had audits performed by JAL management from the head office. Not once did they say we had to change our procedure.

Boeing's ACAPS for the 747-100/-200/-300/-SP/-400/-400ER shows tugs with empty dollies under the fuselage for loading and unloading, so it is an acceptable procedure.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec5.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7471sec5.pdf


User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5009 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Thread starter):
After reading some trip reports about UA 787 trips I have noticed in pictures that the wings look to be over coned... Is there a reason why there cones surrounding the whole wing while the plane is being serviced?

When we arrived in ORD from IAH there were no cones under the wings. It looks like they only used them at IAH and LAX. Probably just a precaution, wouldn't want the publicity and cancellations that would be caused by a damaged wing in the first couple days of flight.
Could also be because of all the extra activity around the 787, with people on the ramp taking pictures and stuff you would want to add something extra to warn service vehicles to watch out.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4888 times:
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I have worked for Evergreen EAGLE, ASIG, Delta and United. All 4 companies had different policies regarding driving under the wing and the coning of aircraft. The one thing that was consistant was driving between the engine and the fuselage. None of the companies that I worked for allowed that.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 29):
I have worked for Evergreen EAGLE, ASIG, Delta and United. All 4 companies had different policies regarding driving under the wing and the coning of aircraft. The one thing that was consistant was driving between the engine and the fuselage. None of the companies that I worked for allowed that.

And from what I remember seeing in CLE (I flew through there a lot in 2010 positive space on CO) they didn't cone the wings of their 757s either.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):

We always cone the wings, reguardless of aircraft type. The wings are also conned with a hurdle cone.
I will do some research into the GOM about it but I think it is just a station policy



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User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

Definately station specific.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 31):

Go to aircraft specifics then an a/c, choose servicing then go to GSE positioning. Wingtip cones are present for narrowbodies (except the 757s) but not for widebodies.

[Edited 2012-11-23 21:17:12]

[Edited 2012-11-23 21:20:42]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 32):

I will look into it, thank you for the information.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):
And from what I remember seeing in CLE (I flew through there a lot in 2010 positive space on CO) they didn't cone the wings of their 757s either.

Out here all Types get safety coned......including the B757s.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinefuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

I have parked a fuel truck between the engines (pulling in from the tail) on DC-8s a lot. We had gates were that was the only way to get to the fuel ports. Same on 747s.


I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
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