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Pallets Or LD3s And How Do You Restrain Them?  
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9360 times:

Looking at the cargo capacity of the new generation of frames /787, 350, 777X) what is the prioritized cargo format (Palets, ULD) for normal passenger frames which also ads cargo under the floor after the bags have taken their part.

I guess what I am really asking is; for what format will the framers optimize their cargo hold? Some thread stated ULD in the back and pallets up front, true? I am disregarding the bulk area at the extreme back of the frame in this discussion.

How tight are the ULD / Pallets packed and how are they retrained? I have seen the typical T shaped locks you put in the moving direction (red in the picture) but do these really hold the cargo sufficiently? Do you deploy automatically or does a person follow the pallet / ULD and put up the locks manually to hold it in position?

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/777-200cargohold.jpg
Cargo hold of a 777-200 with the locks in red and the electrical rubber wheel Power Drive Units (PDU) which pull the cargo in the desired direction recessed in the floor.

It looks there must be wiggle room as these locks are only placed at fixed distances on the rails. For me I would like the cargo locked down from the sides as well where you are dimensionally fixed ie any lock would be a tight fit and hold the cargo fixed to the floor. I such case how you do cater for the different pallet sizes and ULDs?


Non French in France
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9295 times:
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the pallets and LD units are a std size and the cargo pit is spaced for the load to be rec'd. 88X108, 88 X 125 LD3,LD6, LD11 and there are side guide rails to keep the pallets or "cans" in place because were the pallet locks to fail or not be there?? the noise of banging cans in the pits would scare the passengers and pilots half to DEATH

User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9238 times:

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
I guess what I am really asking is; for what format will the framers optimize their cargo hold? Some thread stated ULD in the back and pallets up front, true?

In general the framers provide the options to fly various configurations of pallets and containers. What is used will typically depend on the nature of cargo booked while loading positions are determined by weight & balance so as to keep the aircraft flying straight & level.

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
How tight are the ULD / Pallets packed and how are they restrained? I have seen the typical T shaped locks you put in the moving direction (red in the picture) but do these really hold the cargo sufficiently? Do you deploy automatically or does a person follow the pallet / ULD and put up the locks manually to hold it in position?

Once loaded everything is packed together quite tightly. You have mentioned the red locks in your picture already which (if all 4 are available) are certified to hold a pallet of up to 5 tons in place. These are put up manually. Strfyr51 has already mentioned the side guide rails which have a number of restraints fixed to them, the edge of every pallet or container slides underneath these restraints. All of these together will keep your pallet or container firmly in it's place and will prevent movement in any direction.

Hope that answers your questions  

[Edited 2012-11-22 10:14:03]


I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9180 times:

Thanks both, answered all my questions. But there are more  :

Now one can see the central isle locks being raised in the picture (probably prepared to load LD3s) but these would have to be lowered otherwise the loading would be difficult (drawer effect between side wall and central locks)?Why are they then raised in an empty cargo bay?

Also what decides if a forwarder packs things in a ULD or a pallet? In understand a pallet gives more freedom for large goods but additionally tare weight of the pallet (only a plate) should be lower ie if things can easily be stowed on a pallet this is the lower weight variant and therefore more economical of the two? What about the airliners tariffs, are these neutral between ULDs and pallets ie for same volume and weight taken one charges the same price?

Which takes longest to load ULD or pallet?



Non French in France
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9153 times:

Just for good measure. ULD = Unit Load Device, and that covers both containers or pallets. Thus saying "ULDs and pallets" is a bit like saying "aircraft and biplanes".

Anyway, some aircraft (like for instance the B777) has a lower-deck hold that is certified for loose loading. This means that ULDs can be stack-loaded, which is to say there's no locks securing each ULD individually, but rather a set of locks near the front or back of the hold securing the entire stack. Stack loading is, generally speaking, only possible if the hold is completely full, otherwise ULDs will be locked down individually.

As for distribution of ULD types it very much depends on the operation, the airline and the destinations served. In most cases, however, passenger airlines will load LD3 (AKE) ULDs in the aft hold containing passenger bags, and load P1 or P6 size ULDs in the forward hold. Reason for that is ground stability; you load the aft hold last and un-load it first, and passenger bags usually take priority over freight.

The only time ULDs are locked to the side of the aircraft, instead of using the laterally placed locks, is when you load 16 and 20ft units on the main-deck of a freighter.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9120 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 4):
Just for good measure. ULD = Unit Load Device, and that covers both containers or pallets. Thus saying "ULDs and pallets" is a bit like saying "aircraft and biplanes".

Thanks, I also thank you for explaining some of the thinking behind container or pallet.

More questions comes to mind:

- What frames would be cleared for loose loading in the lower holds more then 777? 787? Any A types?

- Are one in general free to load what a hold can take in terms of ULDs and mix and match to get maximum capacity (ie if it is OK from weight (pressure on hold floor) and CG). Or are there restrictions from the framer on this (I am only asking for the A and B double isle frames) and if so what would these be (except for floor loading or CG restrains, which are pretty obvious).



Non French in France
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9090 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
Now one can see the central isle locks being raised in the picture (probably prepared to load LD3s) but these would have to be lowered otherwise the loading would be difficult (drawer effect between side wall and central locks)?Why are they then raised in an empty cargo bay?

These are indeed for LD3s. Usually the first few locks are set up, a few LD3s are loaded & then you repeat this again until all are loaded. With well used LD3s and a less then brand new PDU system there's always a few you'll need to push and shove a bit to help them get in their place. Unloading is a bit easier and it's quite possible they have left them all up during unloading. Alternatively there's also the practice of putting them up once you're done so the next loading crew to come on the aircraft can see that all are in working order.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
Also what decides if a forwarder packs things in a ULD or a pallet?

I assume you are meaning the LD3 or a pallet here. Dimensions & weights of the cargo being shipped are the name of the game here, obviously the container is much more restricted in what it can take. Tare weight is not a concern.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
What about the airliners tariffs, are these neutral between ULDs and pallets ie for same volume and weight taken one charges the same price?

Assuming agents have delivered the cargo loose for the airline to build it up, yes.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
Which takes longest to load ULD or pallet?

Generally pallets are the easiest to load. Containers are a bit more difficult but not very much more.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
- What frames would be cleared for loose loading in the lower holds more then 777? 787? Any A types?

Add any aircraft that can take LD3s, it applies to both manufacturers.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
- Are one in general free to load what a hold can take in terms of ULDs and mix and match to get maximum capacity (ie if it is OK from weight (pressure on hold floor) and CG). Or are there restrictions from the framer on this (I am only asking for the A and B double isle frames) and if so what would these be (except for floor loading or CG restrains, which are pretty obvious).

You've got it right, provided you stick with maximum weights per hold or zone and CG remains within limits you're free to make up any load configuration you like.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9086 times:

Most LD3 locks are not T-shaped, they are rather L-shaped. LD3's are held down by center locks and side locks, which are T-shaped. On some planes there are also I-shaped locks that retract electronically, you can see them in the picture you posted (the two gray flat bars, bottom right). Like B777LRF mentioned, LD3 can be stacked with no locks in between them, only at each end. The center locks you were wondering about that are up, most of them are on a hinge and spring loaded so that when a pallet rides over, it simply pushes them down and they pop back up after.

- As far as I know, loose loading is only allowed in the bulk compartment.

- Each hold will have several arrangements available. For example, you can have 4 pallets and 4 LD3's, 3 pallets and 6 LD3's, or maybe all pallets or all LD3's. They are many more configurations. Most of the time they are enough locks to allow any configuration without having to rearrange locks.

- Pallets are usually quicker to load simply because there are less of them. 2 or 4 LD3's can take the spot of 1 pallet.

http://imgur.com/a/hUefk Here are two terrible pictures taken with my old phone. You can see there is little room once loaded with LD3's. In the center there are T-Locks, while AKE62591CI is held in place by I-shaped locks.

It's too bad you didn't post this thread a week earlier. I had an NCA 747-8F Loading Manual in my car for weeks, but I threw it away because I didn't need it anymore. It shows every lock in detail and every arrangement possible, downright to how many locks per compartment and their use and location. It would have been perfect for this. I might be able to grab another one tomorrow.

[Edited 2012-11-22 15:34:23]

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9027 times:

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 6):

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
- What frames would be cleared for loose loading in the lower holds more then 777? 787? Any A types?

Add any aircraft that can take LD3s, it applies to both manufacturers.

Not quite. The A300s we operate, for example, are not approved for stack loading. I know the 74 and 76 is, but I'm not familiar enough with any other type to say whether or not it's approved.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
- Are one in general free to load what a hold can take in terms of ULDs and mix and match to get maximum capacity (ie if it is OK from weight (pressure on hold floor) and CG). Or are there restrictions from the framer on this (I am only asking for the A and B double isle frames) and if so what would these be (except for floor loading or CG restrains, which are pretty obvious).

There are certain practical restrictions when it comes to how you can combine different ULD sizes, but the permutations are quite high. The aft hold of a 777F, for instance, can be loaded in 128 different ways.

Besides the weight limitations per position there are also linear load limits, cumulative load limits and running load limits to take into account. Some of those limits are valid for positions directly above each other (we're talking freighters here), which is to say that a heavy set of ULDs in the aft main-deck may impose a cumulative limit on lower-deck ULDs loaded directly beneath them. There's also the wonderfully named "unsymmetrical load limit" and the equally nice sounding "lateral imbalance limit" to contend with. All this, and you also have to make sure the aircraft is within CG limits, preferably with a nice tail-heavy trim (for fuel economy).

All in all there's quite a bit more to it than just slinging the ULDs onboard, close the doors and light the fires.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9026 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 7):
- As far as I know, loose loading is only allowed in the bulk compartment.

The lower-deck holds on a 777 is certified for loose loading. In the case of the 777F that means you could, in theory, loose load a combined 52.5 tons in the forward and aft holds. But that is very much in theory; it would be a very cold day in hell indeed before we'd do something as daft as that. But the book says we can.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

Quoting ak907 (Reply 7):
Each hold will have several arrangements available. For example, you can have 4 pallets and 4 LD3's, 3 pallets and 6 LD3's, or maybe all pallets or all LD3's. They are many more configurations. Most of the time they are enough locks to allow any configuration without having to rearrange locks.

I notice that Boeing are providing various pallet and LD3 combinations for the forward and aft cargo bays on the 787-8 and 787-9 lower lobe drawings which are part of the ACAP sheets


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9012 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
Why are they then raised in an empty cargo bay?

At my company we always leave the locks up in an empty airplane. Just a safety habit I guess. If you always put them up theoretically you won't forget when you have cans or cookie sheets on board.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8977 times:

Thanks all for very good answers, now I know a lot more on how one loads cans and cookie sheets  .


Non French in France
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3929 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
Also what decides if a forwarder packs things in a ULD or a pallet?

Remember that not all cargo doors can take a pallet, because they are too small.
All B767 rear doors are for Cans only, and most B767 fwd doors as well. The BA B767 have a B744 door fitted on the fwd hold so can take std pallets loaded lengthways (instead of across like a B744 etc.)
The original B777 also had small rear freight doors.

Our (BA) B767 carries a lot of freight. The dispatcher calculates how many LD3s he will need for bags, and releases the rest of the space for cargo. With small pax loads, this will mean cargo LD3s in the rear. Sometimes with a very low pax load, there will be balance problems with a full fwd hold, so the dispatcher will call cargo and get them to split a pallet down into LD3s to go in the aft hold. We only use LD3s in our B767, so they can go in a B744 or B777 as well.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8766 times:

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 13):
All B767 rear doors are for Cans only, and most B767 fwd doors as well.

Negative.

A large aft door on the 76 is an optional extra, something most freighters are equipped with. Never seen a 76 with a small fwd door, but won't dispute they exist. If you're only ever going to carry LD3 or LD2 ULDs, having "just" a small door might work for you. I'd hate to be the one trying to off-load them to the second hand market though.

http://i50.tinypic.com/141qfm8.jpg
DHK B767-300ERF. If you look closely enough you'll see large doors both fwd and aft.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 13):
The original B777 also had small rear freight doors.

Small rear door is standard for pax operations only, on factory built freighters the large door option is often chosen.

http://i46.tinypic.com/28rzeq0.jpg
AeroLogic B777F aft door.

[Edited 2012-11-23 17:20:03]


From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3929 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8688 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 13):
The original B777 also had small rear freight doors.

Small rear door is standard for pax operations only, on factory built freighters the large door option is often chosen.

Thanks for info.
British Airways first 5 B777 had small rear doors, all the rest have large ones.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Most of the folks have been brilliant in their posts as usual.....I cant think of anything much to add as almost what I wanted to state has been said.....  

On the B737/757 freighters we use the 88x125 & 88x88 pallets....Containers of similiar size was rejected as the added weight penalty existed on the tare weight of approx 130kgs to 300kgs of a pallet & container respectively.

Loads are pushed manually & locked in place manually too.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Thanks for the additional answers, every piece of info is appreciated. The net is full of info and pictures of cabins, interiors and seats but very little on what goes under the floor or on both floors on a freighter, I happen to think this is equally interesting   .

Now for someone like LAXDESI or similar to say how much revenue does a 1.5 m of cargo (2*LD3 or 1*LD 6 or 2/3 of a 96in pallet ) bring in compared to 2 rows of economy (8 abrest) on a typical 8-10 hour leg?

I.e. what I am asking is how interesting is cargo compared to pax in Y if one had a weight limit and needs to prioritize (what is the per m price of a cargo hold vs a pax hold) ? This is of course dependant on your routes but lets assume it is a trip from HKG to CDG .



Non French in France
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8613 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
I.e. what I am asking is how interesting is cargo compared to pax in Y if one had a weight limit and needs to prioritize (what is the per m price of a cargo hold vs a pax hold) ? This is of course dependant on your routes but lets assume it is a trip from HKG to CDG .

I believe cargo density is the first variable to be determined. Below is an extract from a study the link for which is below.

Commodity description Density in M^3
CONSOLIDATIONS 170.73
ELECTRICALS 202.33
FRESH SALMON 266.82
PHARMAC NOHAZ 126.59
NCS FLOWERS 150.00
LEATHER 223.03
COURIER GOODS 184.00
BUMBLE BEES 200.00
VW AUTOPRTS 45.13
MERCEDES CAR 135.57

http://www.tiaca.org/images/TIACA/PD...r%20Cargo%20Density%20Research.pdf


User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8581 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
Never seen a 76 with a small fwd door, but won't dispute they exist. If you're only ever going to carry LD3 or LD2 ULDs, having "just" a small door might work for you.

Some of Delta's 763s (the non-ERs I believe) have the small fwd door:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Arcellana



American's 762s are the same way:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chad Thomas - Jetwash Images




Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8572 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):

The LD3 is not the ideal can for 767s but it will fit, you can only fit one a position inside the bin. Your ideal 767 can is the LD2 but other cans can fit:
LD4
LD8
LD11
LD7(even on the narrow door 767) depends on the size of the cookie sheet.


http://www.baworldcargo.com/configs/BAWCconfigurations.pdf
http://www.hawaiianairlines.com/Cargo/containers
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...hipping-containers-guidelines.html

Of course I am talking about passenger airliner cargo

Quoting wn676 (Reply 19):

Correct          The DL 763 nonER have the narrow door up front.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3596 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8536 times:
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Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 10):
I notice that Boeing are providing various pallet and LD3 combinations for the forward and aft cargo bays on the 787-8 and 787-9 lower lobe drawings which are part of the ACAP sheets

Boeing has the same information in the ACAP for all their widebody aircraft. The individual airlines' loading manuals have way more loading configurations.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 20):
LD7(even on the narrow door 767) depends on the size of the cookie sheet.

There is no way a LD7 will fit through the 767 narrow door. A LD7 is either 88 x 125 in or 96 x 125 in. The 767 narrow door is 70 in wide.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8484 times:

Quoting ha763 (Reply 21):
There is no way a LD7 will fit through the 767 narrow door. A LD7 is either 88 x 125 in or 96 x 125 in. The 767 narrow door is 70 in wide.

Narrow Cookie sheet, offloaded one tonight out of the back bin of a 763. I know an LD7 is 88 x 125 or 96 x 125 but I don't really know what to call it...



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8462 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
Now for someone like LAXDESI or similar to say how much revenue does a 1.5 m of cargo (2*LD3 or 1*LD 6 or 2/3 of a 96in pallet ) bring in compared to 2 rows of economy (8 abrest) on a typical 8-10 hour leg?

Can't answer your question, but I can say that most cargo runs will not be 8 - 10hrs, even w/ twin aisle aircraft. This is part of why cargo operators will trade away a lot of range for raw uplift capability.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8461 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
I know an LD7 is 88 x 125 or 96 x 125 but I don't really know what to call it...

Going with the IATA codes we use normally these would then be: P1P for 88 x 125 & PMC for 96 x 125. Never heard them being called cookie sheets, learned something new again 
Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
I.e. what I am asking is how interesting is cargo compared to pax in Y if one had a weight limit and needs to prioritize ?

Full fare passengers have priorty, non revenue passengers may get bumped if the flight is restricted. Whose more intresting is difficult to tell, passenger ticket prices can vary greatly and cargo has a lot of rates to work with depending on the type of goods or the need to get them somewhere as fast as possible.

[Edited 2012-11-25 01:56:30]


I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8450 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):

The center locks down the middle are guide locks for LD3s, they provide for proper alignment and the lip on the containers slide underneath the t to keep it grounded. On most aircraft I have worked, they are spring loaded past the door and will collapse as pallets slide over them.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 8):

On Boeing you can load 4 ld3s per each row of locks. Ld8s and pallets much be secured seperately. On Airbus, each container or pallet must be locked seperately(no loose loading.)

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):

All of deltas non-er 763s have small forward doors.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 15):

AA 77E have the small aft door afaik.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 4):

On all the 747f I have worked, all pallets and containers are locked from the side, however there are specially made spots on 16 and 20ft pallets that the side locks go into. BTW, 20ft are a hell of a lot easier to load thru the nose when load height allows for it. On pax flights, we routinely mixed loaded aft and forward based on cg needs. All bag cans would be loaded with direct door access.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 6):

Air India's 744s are the worst. PDUs utilize the old big rubber wheel, warped and never catch on anything except overweight pmcs.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8414 times:

Wow, great thread guys. I learned a lot from this thread thanks to the many posters.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8447 times:

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 25):
On Boeing you can load 4 ld3s per each row of locks. Ld8s and pallets much be secured seperately. On Airbus, each container or pallet must be locked seperately(no loose loading.)

Is this applicable for all DA types ie essentially 767, 777 and 300/310/330/340 ?

If so is this OEM policy or are there differences in equipment which leads to these differences?



Non French in France
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8374 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
Wow, great thread guys. I learned a lot from this thread thanks to the many posters.

Agreed.......    What software is there out there that takes the number of pallets/cans and the weight of each and calculates a loading plan for a specific aircraft ?


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 25):
On all the 747f I have worked, all pallets and containers are locked from the side, however there are specially made spots on 16 and 20ft pallets that the side locks go into.

Never seen a 10ft ULD that was not secured by a row of laterally placed locks, forward and aft of the ULD, on the main-deck of any freighter. Well, outside a military derivative of Russian or Ukrainian persuasion that is.

I have seen the side locks used on 10ft ULDs as well, but only as a measure of vertical restraint.

You mention the "pockets" for the side locks on 16 and 20ft. Never seen a 10ft ULD with the same configuration, so am wondering how the side locks can provide longitudinal restraint?



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 27):

Afaik, Boeing has their policies regarding restraints as does Airbus. The first time I worked an Airbus wide body, I tried to load 4 ld3s and put the locks up, but there was about a 2 inch gap from lock to container. I think its OEM differences, seems like Boeing gets a little more space out of the lower deck of their widebodies than Airbus, while Airbus gets more out their narrowbodies than Boeing sans 757.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 29):

Sorry, I was just talking about the side locks. All locks are put up regardless of container or pallet length, although I have loaded some AMA and AMJ containers that had those "pockets" or indents, not sure what their technical name is. Sorry for the confusion, just trying to add a little to your post.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8251 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 29):
Never seen a 10ft ULD that was not secured by a row of laterally placed locks, forward and aft of the ULD, on the main-deck of any freighter

An u/s pallet/container lock is deffereable provided the entire Pallet located in that zone of the u/s lock is removed.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8206 times:

What is the difference between the interior loading system on the 763 and the 764? Which one is easier to use?


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8111 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
An u/s pallet/container lock is deffereable provided the entire Pallet located in that zone of the u/s lock is removed.

Are you saying that a single broken/malfunctioning lock will render a position unusable? If so, that's certainly not true.

Depending on the type of lock, the direction it is restraining against, it's location and the number of locks restraining in the same direction as the broken one, you may have a max. weight restriction if one or more are broken. There are, however, also plenty of examples where one or more locks will not have any effect. Vertical locks in Boeing lower-decks springs to mind (up to 3 vertical locks on the 777 broken = no restriction), but I can show you plenty of examples where a single broken main-deck lock will have no negative impact.

Below are a couple of tables showing the effect of broken locks on the B777F.

Aft Lower-deck (LD3 loading)
http://i47.tinypic.com/2v0jout.jpg

Main-deck (125/88 and 125/96 loading)
http://i46.tinypic.com/ety4q8.jpg
N/R = No Restriction



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 33):
Are you saying that a single broken/malfunctioning lock will render a position unusable? If so, that's certainly not true.

It is true as per our SOP.Single lock renders the space for Pallet unserviceable.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7978 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
It is true as per our SOP.Single lock renders the space for Pallet unserviceable.

That sounds a bit overtly restrictive, knee-jerk reaction?



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7943 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
It is true as per our SOP.Single lock renders the space for Pallet unserviceable.

who has responsibility for checking for and issuing orders to repair/replace defective pallet locks? It is not something that the flight crew would be aware of ...or is it ?


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7947 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 36):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
It is true as per our SOP.Single lock renders the space for Pallet unserviceable.

who has responsibility for checking for and issuing orders to repair/replace defective pallet locks?

Maintenance. Ground crew would notify maintenance when discovered, maintenance would log the appropriate actions.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 36):
It is not something that the flight crew would be aware of ...or is it ?

The flight crew should get it from the discrepancies pages in the log book when maintenance hands the book over.


User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 35):
That sounds a bit overtly restrictive, knee-jerk reaction?

Sometimes there is a weight limitation in place if a lock is broken. For example, on the 747F main deck there are three locks on both the front and aft of each pallet. If one of the outer locks is broken, there is a weight limit (really low). If the center one is broken, two adjacent positions of that lock are forbidden to be loaded.

And for sunrisevalley's question for the w&b program, there are many out there. DHL uses a program called SABLE, which is what we use at our station. Link: http://www.rekencentra.be/v2/en/pagina.php?niv=2&niv1_ID=2&niv2_ID=9


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1208 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7780 times:

SABLE. One of the better decisions I was fortunate to be part of.

And, speaking of restrictions associated with broken/missing locks, that functionality is built into SABLE. Simply hover your mouse over the position, right click and select "missing restraint". New window opens, click the lock that's broken and SABLE will display any applicable lower weight. Works like magic, and to my knowledge no other W&B system can do that trick.

It's 10 years old now, but still the most advanced piece of W&B software on the market. Has been sold to a number of other operators, including Cathay Pacific and Polar Air Cargo. Lufthansa Cargo dearly wanted it too, mainly owing to it's vastly superior performance over the lethargic WAB system, but mother Lufthansa Passage wouldn't have it. Their loss.

If you're interested in buying it let me know and I'll point you in the right direction. It will talk to any DCS you can think of and will, of course, also trim passenger aircraft. Won't come cheap though but, then again, quality never does.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7760 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 33):
Are you saying that a single broken/malfunctioning lock will render a position unusable? If so, that's certainly not true.

Out of curiosity I just checked my MEL and we void the position forward and aft of that position with a broken or missing lock. Interestingly enough, there are provisions to carry ballast or spare parts in those voided positions.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 36):
who has responsibility for checking for and issuing orders to repair/replace defective pallet locks? It is not something that the flight crew would be aware of ...or is it ?

Ground crew report the same to Maintenance, who then defer the same under MEL.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 40):
Out of curiosity I just checked my MEL and we void the position forward and aft of that position with a broken or missing lock. Interestingly enough, there are provisions to carry ballast or spare parts in those voided positions.

Exactly ....



Think of the brighter side!
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