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B707 VMC Accident In The Past.  
User currently offlineQantas747300 From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 63 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

I am trying to source the accident behind a VMC diagram. I believe it was a B707 that experienced a loss of control due to excessive bank (following engine failure perhaps) which resulted in a vertical fin stall.

Countless hours of research hasn't sourced what I am after, thus, you have control.

[Edited 2012-12-06 17:20:33]

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2391 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

This one?
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19911029-0


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9105 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

Quoting Qantas747300 (Thread starter):
I am trying to source the accident behind a VMC diagram.

Are you able to post the picture ? some USAF manuals used a picture of an aircraft that looked like a 707 (KC-135) to illustrate points.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineQantas747300 From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

AJ,
Thank you. However the study that I refer to was published by the FAA regarding an incident investigated by the NTSB. Unfortunately, no further information.

The RAAF accident apparently closely resembled the incident that I seek information on.


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2143 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

I only am aware of 707 VMC problems in 1959, that were at last solved by modifying (increasing the height of the vertical tail.
British certification requirements relating to engine-out go-arounds forced Boeing to increase the height of the tail fin on all 707 variants, as well as add a ventral fin, which was retrofitted on earlier −120 and −220 aircraft. These modifications also aided in the mitigation of dutch roll by providing more stability in yaw.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineSDF880 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

TWA lost a 707-331C Freighter VMC while doing some training at ACY. I believe this was in the late 60's

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3832 times:

Quoting Qantas747300 (Thread starter):
which resulted in a vertical fin stall.

How in the hell do you do that?    It never entered my mind that was even possible, unless you are doing an extreme maneuver like a lomkovac...

In a typical Vmc accident, you just happen to get the aircraft below the speed at which the rudder has the authority to counteract the yaw due to assymetrical thrust... as far as I know, the rudder is still creating lift. If you find it happening to you in real life, the quickest way to recover is to throttle back the good engine, point the nose down, and pick up airspeed (assuming you aren't really low, like base to final traffic pattern turn low  Wow! )



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
How in the hell do you do that?

Generating a sideslip angle of more than the fin stall angle, about 14 degrees or thereabouts. If the aircraft was rolling the fin AOA could be effectively increased, making a stall happen at lower sideslip.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
If you find it happening to you in real life, the quickest way to recover is to throttle back the good engine, point the nose down, and pick up airspeed

That's fine in a steady state case where you've chosen to reduce thrust on one engine, a training scenario. With a real engine failure you might have to reduce thrust on the good engine to get directional control back. But increasing airspeed is always a good idea.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineQantas747300 From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

This accident set the foundation for certification requirements of bank not exceeding 5 degrees for VMC certification.

User currently offlinesaafnav From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):

How in the hell do you do that? It never entered my mind that was even possible, unless you are doing an extreme maneuver like a lomkovac...

The C-130 is quite prone to a 'Fin Stall' below VMCA2. I believe some have gone down due to this phenomena



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlinescarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 304 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

This is probably the one

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19590815-0

Brgds



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