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Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts  
User currently offlineflyenthu From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 278 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6178 times:
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Hi,

Do ultra long haul flights have two sets of pilot crew because of the long duration flights? Last year while flying from IAH to DXB in business, I remember that we were attended by two different sets of cabin crew. One set worked the first and last leg of the flight. The second set worked the middle part- pretty much the transatlantic and Europe part. I was wondering if the pilot crew also rotated in the same flight?

Thank you!

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6105 times:

Yes.
TK, like most other carriers have 3 pilots on most long haul flights, like IST-JFK B777. 2 ON while one resting.
For longer flights more pilots on board. TK uses 4 pilots for IST-LAX B777 flights. Two ON, two Resting.


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6064 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 1):
2 ON while one resting.

Then wouldn't one pilot go over their limit of hours?



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6064 times:
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Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):

We at LH do not have any flight where we have 4 pilots on board. Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.
The cabin crew is resting as well. The first service is done, then one part is going to bed, the other is on duty and then they swap and the 2nd service is done by the whole crew again.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6052 times:

3-man rotation is often as follows
Person A works the first 2/3 of the flight
Person B works the first and last 3rd (senior captain often does this)
Person C works the last 2/3 of the flight.
There are only ever 2 people at once, and everyone works similar hours

I have occasionally seen, often for 3-man training flights or flights workable by 2 people:
Captain runs the entire flight, and the FO switches halfway or every quarter.

The FAA has rules about going over the 8 hour limit. It is allowed, but only by flying one long haul flight, and the pilot must have extra rest after. An airline cannot have a pilot run 10 hours of A320 short haul. Someone else.may elaborate if they choose.


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5983 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.  



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

The shifts also depends on whether there are cruise pilots or not. Those will typically only be in the seat above 24000 feet or some such. Not all airlines have cruise pilots though. So you might have one Captain, one F/O and one S/O (second officer), with the Captain and F/O handling the first and last bits together, and both being spelled by the S/O in cruise while they rest in sequence. With four crew you could have one Captain, two F/Os and one S/O but the same sort of principles apply. The S/O will only be in the seat over a certain altitude.

Rest days can be predicated on length of duty AND number of time zones crossed. The more of either, the longer the subsequent rest.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinesciurusmdg From Argentina, joined Apr 2012, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5730 times:
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I have a question about NetJets/ similar outfits- on a lot of their LR jets (Gulfstream 550 etc) there are 2 crew and (to my knowledge, apart from new Globals) no crew rest. However these planes are quite capable of going further than LHR-GRU or similar... what happens on board for these flights?

User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1976 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
So you might have one Captain, one F/O and one S/O (second officer), with the Captain and F/O handling the first and last bits together, and both being spelled by the S/O in cruise while they rest in sequence.

Yes... that's right...that's what I have heard from the pilots.

[Edited 2013-01-07 15:53:28]


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9384 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5707 times:

You might have been served by different crew members, but I don’t know of any airline that has multiple sets of cabin crew on a flight. Usually everyone works for the first meal which is the main production. Then they stagger their breaks. Depending on what the second meal is, all the crew may be working for it or it may be a partial crew if it is just a light snack. The majority of work for the cabin crew is the meal service. After the meal service, half - two/thirds can be on break since there is little work in cruise.

As for pilot crew. SQ has 5 crew on their ultra long haul flights that rotate since above 16 hours can require 5 pilots. 2 captains and 3 first officers (I think). Some airlines will operate ultra long haul with 2 captains and 2 first officers or 1 captain and 3 first officers.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 7):
I have a question about NetJets/ similar outfits- on a lot of their LR jets (Gulfstream 550 etc) there are 2 crew and (to my knowledge, apart from new Globals) no crew rest. However these planes are quite capable of going further than LHR-GRU or similar... what happens on board for these flights?

Autopilot flies while the crew sleeps.   Jokes aside, there may be no need for a designated crew rest. A nice reclinable seat works.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5682 times:
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Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.

You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?



MGGS
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.

You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?

Training would be either a new captain or F/O getting checked out, or a recurrent check. Quite a large number of flights are actually training flights. Much more efficient do this kind of training while carrying passengers than in the sim or an empty plane.

Could have been an extra pilot deadheading also maybe?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5598 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
raining would be either a new captain or F/O getting checked out, or a recurrent check. Quite a large number of flights are actually training flights. Much more efficient do this kind of training while carrying passengers than in the sim or an empty plane.

Could have been an extra pilot deadheading also maybe?

Back then it was flown by 4 pilots. Same to SIN, but the conditions canged and the contract were renegotiated which made it possible to fly it with 3 pilots. The EZE flight is very close to the max duty time for 3 pilots. So 20 minutes delay and you have to call a standby crew.
That's the reason the 744 is still flying to EZE, the 340 would need longer on that flight and you would need a 4th pilot. No A vs B war here, but it is fact that the 340 flies slower and on such a long flight it makes a difference between 3 and 4 pilots.

And deadheading crew is always sitting in the cabin. Our contract doesn't allow crews to fly on the jumpseats. So they need to have a seat.

wilco737
  

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:11:56]


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5949 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5584 times:
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Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Back then it was flown by 4 pilots. Same to SIN, but the conditions canged and the contract were renegotiated which made it possible to fly it with 3 pilots. The EZE flight is very close to the max duty time for 3 pilots. So 20 minutes delay and you have to call a standby crew.

Interesting. We were delayed by about 35 mins. from departure time. The FA told me it was due to being overweight and having to offload cargo. F was full, there was 1 empty seat on C and Y had 6 empty seats. The 744 was D-ABVB. It was a fantastic flight.



MGGS
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 8):

Yep. I was going to elaborate on it later. It really depends on the airline for normal ops, and the pilots make the final call. If crew members are all different ranks (a la CX) a cruise pilot will normally be used.

If a crew is similar ranking or seniority, and on some airlines, it is a simple rotation. The captain will fly TO and landing generally. The FOs will generally each handle a TO and landing. Often times, an FO will still end up doing most of the autopilot babysitting. It won't be split between the two.
Same thing for 4 pilots (also used some by CX and others)

Some airlines will have a Captain/FO pair running TO and landing, with a SO cruise crew. Others will have two film crews, switching at regular intervals.

These days, a cruise pilot crew often costs less and is used more.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5560 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):
Interesting. We were delayed by about 35 mins. from departure time. The FA told me it was due to being overweight and having to offload cargo. F was full, there was 1 empty seat on C and Y had 6 empty seats. The 744 was D-ABVB. It was a fantastic flight.

Yes, that can happen and then there can be made a duty time extention. It cannot be done by the company, only by the captain. And then you can have a duty time of 21 hours.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1976 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5503 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 15):
These days, a cruise pilot crew often costs less and is used more.

True... I told him (a cruise pilot) that he is lucky that he doesnt have to worry about lots of work to do for take off and landing. lol

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Not all airlines have cruise pilots though

Really... I didn't know that.

Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5498 times:
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Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 17):
Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?

We don't have 2nd officers. We have First officer and senior first officer. The Senior First officer takes the left seat during cruise when the captain is on his rest. But all FO's and SFO's are allowed to take off and land.
We have a couple CRC's left, they are not allowed to take off and land.

Actually, we do have 2nd officer, but those are the guys just getting from the flight school. During their line training they are called 2nd officers but visually cannot be identified (look the same like FO). After their final check on the line they become First Offciers.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 17):
Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?

We don't have 2nd officers. We have First officer and senior first officer. The Senior First officer takes the left seat during cruise when the captain is on his rest. But all FO's and SFO's are allowed to take off and land.

AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.

S/O's at Cathay do not receive a full type rating.


User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1976 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
CRC

What does CRC stand for?

Thanks for explanation. It's so interesting to talk about it.  



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5268 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 20):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.

S/O's at Cathay do not receive a full type rating.

Ah thx. And so what do they get?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
Ah thx. And so what do they get?

A P2X rating from the HKCAD that allows them to act as a relief pilot.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5123 times:
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Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 21):
What does CRC stand for?

Something like Crew Relief Crew. Usually we call them Crew relief pilot.

At LH Cargo we still have a couple. I haven't seen one on the 744/ 748 yet. But I heard there are 1 or 2 left.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2069 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):

How I love the word "CRC". Crew relief crew. In signal transmission, CRC means "cyclic redundancy check".  

Do the CRC pilots have less strict training or medical standards? Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1976 posts, RR: 26
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5134 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?

Good question... I am curious about it too!!



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineWilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5193 times:
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Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Do the CRC pilots have less strict training or medical standards? Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?

They have different training as they do not need to land the airplane. but they get training on the airplane, they are able to fly it, operate the autopilot and handle abnormal situations.
CRC from the beginning? I doubt it to be honest. But I am not sure.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineflyenthu From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5177 times:
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After EK 211 took off and leveled, I saw, who I believe was the captain, wearing an informal crew t-shirt and headed to their resting area at the back of the plane. He had also announced there was a secondary crew as well. My flight took over 16 hrs and having 2 crew sets made sense.

User currently offlineflyenthu From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5076 times:
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My flight actually took almost 17 hours- 16 hrs and 49 min.

User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 928 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5030 times:

Curious, so how is "rest" time actually, legally, calculated? Time away from the flight deck with no flying "responsibilities," or just reclining in place with no "hands on the stick or buttons?"


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4965 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):
Something like Crew Relief Crew. Usually we call them Crew relief pilot.

Cruise Relief Crew?



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 29):
My flight actually took almost 17 hours- 16 hrs and 49 min.

With the crew briefing and pre-flighting you're adding another couple of hours, so the "flight" for them is closer to 19-20 hours.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4804 times:
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Quoting Fabo (Reply 31):

Haha, yes of course. Crew relief crew doesn't make any sense. Thanks.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinekpc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):


Thanks for that information! I've always been curious about SQ's EWR-SIN flight and how it was crewed. I was always hesitant to start another thread.

Do you know if the aircraft has a crew rest area or do the pilots take one of the business class seats?

Cheers


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Most planes sized maybe A330 up have proper rest areas, at least as an option. Of course any airline is not required to have such option, but if you need a rest area, it makes sense to put it somewhere else than seats you could sell.


The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2069 posts, RR: 12
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 35):
Most planes sized maybe A330 up have proper rest areas, at least as an option. Of course any airline is not required to have such option, but if you need a rest area, it makes sense to put it somewhere else than seats you could sell.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/Crewrestmodule.jpg - crew rest box in the plane's belly.  

Seats are not really a consideration IMHO because you couldn't do ULH flights without a proper crew rest area. The crown area of an aircraft is seldum used for anything (at least on the widebodies), and so many A/C have the crew rest there:

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...s/commercial/crewrest_location.jpg


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 36):
you couldn't do ULH flights without a proper crew rest area

I suppose you could block a premium cabin to be designated crew rest area, if you absolutely needed to operate an ULH flight with aircraft not equipped with proper crew rest. But this is just unimportant academics anyway.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
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