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Why Are Canadian Fares So High?  
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

I did a quick search, didn't see anything of relevance. I apologise if this is a duplicate, or indeed in the wrong forum.

Why are fares within Canada so high? YDQ YVR return is 650$ on 9M on their cheapest days. Only 88,52$ is tax.

YOW to YFB return is over 2000$ with 5T and 7F, of which taxes are 250$

The cheapest I've ever seen YYZ YVR return is 550$ on WS or AC, but I can fly BUF SEA for 371,60$ on WN.


I know airlines have to operate, but what really makes the difference here?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYXD172 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

I'm not sure, but here's my two cents.

The first two are expensive because they are small / isolated markets. I'm guessing loads aren't that high (though I may be wrong) but they are able to charge these fares because there is minimal competition (and in the case of YFB air access is really the only way)

As to why something like YYZ YVR would be so much more... I think a good part of it is lack of competition and because that's the status quo. The higher fees at many canadian airports don't help either.



Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1986 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

It's not just Canadian fares are so high but all the airlines from all over the world are doing the same things. They can make more profit because of lack of competitors.

Australian and American airfares are high too when flying either between "two small cities" or "small cities and large cities".



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

Quoting heathrow (Thread starter):
Why are fares within Canada so high? YDQ YVR return is 650$ on 9M on their cheapest days. Only 88,52$ is tax.
Quoting heathrow (Thread starter):
Why are fares within Canada so high? YDQ YVR return is 650$ on 9M on their cheapest days. Only 88,52$ is tax.

YOW to YFB return is over 2000$ with 5T and 7F, of which taxes are 250$

Small markets, very costly to serve. If you think the fares between YOW to YFB are high, try living in YFB or anywhere else in the remote northern parts of Canada and look at the cost of everything you buy, often several times the price in southern Canada where you don't have to ship almost everything by air.


User currently offlineabnormal From UK - England, joined Aug 2007, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

Don't forget the Airport Landing fees and Navigation fees that get charged to the airlines. Those fess aren't shown on the ticket. YYZ is in the top 5 airports for landing fees and Nav Canada is up there as well.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6214 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4200 times:
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I think the major part is the size of the market and the lack of competition.

Here in Mexico on routes where only one airline operates, MTY-TAM or MTY-QRO for example, the fares are beyond laughable.



MGGS
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4180 times:

Quoting heathrow (Thread starter):
YDQ YVR return is 650$ on 9M on their cheapest days.
Quoting heathrow (Thread starter):
YOW to YFB return is over 2000$ with 5T and 7F, of which taxes are 250$

Basically, its supply and demand. There are very few passengers, so fares are high. This is a deregulated market, if AC or WS wanted to jump in, they are more than welcome. So that should really be your question .... If any airline in Canada can fly that market, and yield is do high ... why don't they?

Quoting heathrow (Thread starter):
The cheapest I've ever seen YYZ YVR return is 550$ on WS or AC, but I can fly BUF SEA for 371,60$ on WN.

YYZ-YVR rt fare is $378.00. There is an additional $168.00 of "taxes, fees and charges". And that is the biggest difference, the taxes Canadians pay. And sadly, the taxes compound, namely the passenger pays a tax on the taxes!

So really you have to compare the $378 in Canada to the $371 in the United States. But ... included in the actual fare, namely the $378, are landing fees and ATC fees. YYZ landing fees are the highest, or second highest on the earth. YYZ and NRT are constantly battling for that honour! Also, ATC en-route fees are about half in the US than Canada. So much a difference that it is factored into the flight planning computer and will route a flight through US airspace when it is cheaper.

I recall reading a while ago that the landing fees in YYZ are about 5 times what they are in BUF. I don't recall the actual numbers but it was something like $2000 for a B777 to land in YYZ, but if it diverted to BUF, the landing fee would be about $400!

So all in all, the $378 the airline gets to fly one from YYZ-YVR, is a pretty good deal compared to the $371 to fly from BUF-SEA!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3135 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4143 times:
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Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 2):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):

I noticed that about the small markets too. My father lives in the Myrtle Beach area and he had to go to Charlotte for a conference. We looked at the ticket prices and they wanted $450 RT for MYR-CLT-MYR on weekdays in October! He figured that it was cheaper to drive his Dodge Ram up to Charlotte, and that thing is a pig on gas.

I also looked at what it would be to do a spotting trip to PHL from ISP and they wanted over 980 dollars for ISP-PHL-ISP on weekdays in November!!! I know the smaller markets are costly to serve, but 980 dollars for 40 minutes on a Dash 8 is ridiculous.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

Fees and taxes explain the difference between cities with competition, gouging explains fares when there is no competition.

The same airlines currently screwing customers where they have a monopoly, will be begging passengers to stick with the local airline if one of the big boys moves in...even though they've spent maybe decades sticking it to those same passengers.

In the north, PWA used to screw passengers even though the flights were already paid for with cargo, some of it under government contract. In 1978, a flight from Inuvik to Edmonton, cost more than Edmonton to Amsterdam.

The Q's easily have the legs to do YEV-YEG direct if they wanted and do even better on the Mckenzie valley milk runs.

We'll see a lot of that happening when WS gets the Q's in service. Lots of smaller places will suddenly have competition.



What the...?
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3827 times:

Wow thanks for all the imput! Really has shed some light on this for me!

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):

Small markets, very costly to serve. If you think the fares between YOW to YFB are high, try living in YFB or anywhere else in the remote northern parts of Canada and look at the cost of everything you buy, often several times the price in southern Canada where you don't have to ship almost everything by air.

Thanks for the imput! I suppose it does make sense. I lived in YZF for a couple years, and prices were quite high for all goods. I still think 5T and 7F's fares are exorbitant considering the distance. Even flights with them from YEG to YZF which can be driven easily are much higher than WS for example.

Quoting abnormal (Reply 4):
Don't forget the Airport Landing fees and Navigation fees that get charged to the airlines. Those fess aren't shown on the ticket. YYZ is in the top 5 airports for landing fees and Nav Canada is up there as well.

I was a travel agent, so we had to learn these fees. It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, Nav can is only 15 - 20$, and YYZ is at MAX 25, less for connecting.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
Basically, its supply and demand. There are very few passengers, so fares are high. This is a deregulated market, if AC or WS wanted to jump in, they are more than welcome. So that should really be your question .... If any airline in Canada can fly that market, and yield is do high ... why don't they?

Good point. I would think it would be 5T and 7F benefit from their 737-200 combi's greatly, and therefore make the route viable.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
YYZ-YVR rt fare is $378.00. There is an additional $168.00 of "taxes, fees and charges". And that is the biggest difference, the taxes Canadians pay. And sadly, the taxes compound, namely the passenger pays a tax on the taxes!

I understand this is a large part of it, but this is a particularly low fare for the route. I suppose with everything added in it does justify a price increase, I just question the validity of the fare.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 8):
In the north, PWA used to screw passengers even though the flights were already paid for with cargo, some of it under government contract. In 1978, a flight from Inuvik to Edmonton, cost more than Edmonton to Amsterdam.

The Q's easily have the legs to do YEV-YEG direct if they wanted and do even better on the Mckenzie valley milk runs.

We'll see a lot of that happening when WS gets the Q's in service. Lots of smaller places will suddenly have competition.

Of course the Q can do it, but will it be viable without the cargo space of the combi's?

I hope to see many regional routes sprouted with the commence of encore, especially in the Peace Region. YPE, YXJ and YYE are dying for it.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

With the Q's, you don't need the cargo to make money on a route.


What the...?
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
With the Q's, you don't need the cargo to make money on a route.

Oh I'm not saying that at all! I'm saying considering YFB's location, the cargo on this route is heavy every day, especially with feeder routes from YFB. I've heard around YOW that pax numbers dwindle on the flights to YFB.

PD has made it very clear one does not need cargo to be successful with the Q400.


User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 11):
PD has made it very clear one does not need cargo to be successful with the Q400

Are they making money yet (ie - successful?).
I really like what PD is doing, love their product, but, as an airline is it successful yet in it's own right?

For the rest of the thread - as long as we keep paying the fares, the prices will remain high. Neither the airlines, airports, or governments are really worried about providing 'affordable' airfares (nor should they be). If people stop paying them, then prices will drop as all three decide a bit less is better than nothing at all.

Same thing drove the recent NHL strike, with the real issue is being simply how the players and owners (or airlines and airports and governments) are going to split up the $$$ we are willing to spend on the product. We're probably not smart enough to stay out of the arena's either, so ticket prices will not drop.
Also similar to the NHL case, the barriers to entry for new competition are immense - capital for planes or arenas, regulatory approvals, market acceptance, and so on make it hard to start a new hockey league or airline!



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 11):

PD has made it very clear one does not need cargo to be successful with the Q400.

Yes, but flying into Canada's north, cargo is what pays the bills, not passengers. In fact, if you look at the history of flying into the north, it has almost always been a pure cargo or combi operation. Even the turbo-props flown as combis!

Quoting BE77 (Reply 12):
Same thing drove the recent NHL strike, with the real issue is being simply how the players and owners (or airlines and airports and governments) are going to split up the $$$ we are willing to spend on the product. We're probably not smart enough to stay out of the arena's either, so ticket prices will not drop.

Funny you should mention that. After Toronto won the World Series two years in a row, the baseball players went on strike. I was incensed when I watched Roberto Alomar try to tell us he was worth millions, then he spat on an umpire ... when three years before he was dirt poor living in the Caribbean!

I never went to another baseball game, and still haven't. Unfortunately, that option is not available to people flying in the north, there simply is no other easy way to get there.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 12):
the barriers to entry for new competition are immense - capital for planes or arenas

But what about existing carriers? Why aren't AC and WS flying into the Arctic. Shoot, when AC merged with CP, they already had B737 combis!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 13):

Yes, but flying into Canada's north, cargo is what pays the bills, not passengers.

That's the beauty of the Q's. If they did go up north, prices would drop and more people would fly, and it doesn't take a lot of passengers to make money with a turboprop. It all might be moot, though. I seem to recall hearing that only NWT owned airlines can fly inter NWT.

I spent many flights as self loading cargo behind a couple of Igloos to and from Inuvik.



What the...?
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 13):
But what about existing carriers? Why aren't AC and WS flying into the Arctic.

You'll know more than me on this, so I'll just guess that it's because of the operational challenges. Having been pax and cargo on all of the different carriers out of YZF (including with CP back in the day, but also all the current operators in the last 10 years or so), I'll say the the one constant with all of the carriers is that there will be delays due to weather. Often multi-day delays. I can't imagine the havoc that would play to the WS and AC crew and equipement scheduling.

Pax don't expect as much from the northern carriers as they would from 'the big guys' from the south. Getting stuck anywhere in the north for a few days is not uncommon....and traveling on 7F or 5T or J4 you don't expect much if a flight is delayed or cancelled. Having seen the whining that AC had to deal with two months ago when the flight i was on diverted due to weather and so we were 90 minutes late getting to YYC, I can't imagine what people would think if they were 6 days in YRB.
(FWIW WS is losing the teflon for similar things, even in YYC - our luggage was an hour (63 minutes, but who's counting) being unloaded in PHX last month, and from the comments around me, I would have thought I had flown from YYC on AC).

Then there is the training and equipement requirements - the gravel ops in the 732's require additional training. Any of your coworkers still qual'd for it? And would they want to 'only' do northern trips? I'm a perennial AC *Gold, and the CP 732's were the last AC owned jets I saw with gravel kits (although the deflectors would look pretty good on an A318, and absolutely wicked on a 777).



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
That's the beauty of the Q's. If they did go up north, prices would drop and more people would fly, and it doesn't take a lot of passengers to make money with a turboprop. It all might be moot, though. I seem to recall hearing that only NWT owned airlines can fly inter NWT.

That's just it. There is very little traffic traveling to and from the Arctic that doesn't have to. It is not like the infrastructure exists to handle much more tourist trade than what is presently visiting. So, I really don't see more traffic being generated with lower fares.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 15):
You'll know more than me on this, so I'll just guess that it's because of the operational challenges. Having been pax and cargo on all of the different carriers out of YZF (including with CP back in the day, but also all the current operators in the last 10 years or so), I'll say the the one constant with all of the carriers is that there will be delays due to weather. Often multi-day delays. I can't imagine the havoc that would play to the WS and AC crew and equipment scheduling.

When we flew into the Arctic, with Canadian, it was with specialized crews from specialized bases. Pairings (crews) and equipment routings were set up so that northern operations didn't affect southern operations. And with all the Arctic flying I did do, i don't recall any huge delays. But ... often we just over-flew stops, and yes, people were patient.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 15):
Then there is the training and equipment requirements - the gravel ops in the 732's require additional training. Any of your coworkers still qual'd for it? And would they want to 'only' do northern trips? I'm a perennial AC *Gold, and the CP 732's were the last AC owned jets I saw with gravel kits (although the deflectors would look pretty good on an A318, and absolutely wicked on a 777).

I was "gravel trained", and probably the youngest of the exCP guys still at AC that was. Most were a lot older, and most have since retired. It allowed one to bid Arctic flying, which generally was better and more productive. A typical pairing might be YYZ-YUL-YRB-YUL layover YUL-YFB-YRB-YEG layover YEG-YCB-YRB-YUL-YYZ. I would only have to do that three times for my month! Much better than the YYZ-YUL-YYZ-YUL-YYZ which guys who were not "gravel trained" of my seniority were doing ... 20 times a month!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
I seem to recall hearing that only NWT owned airlines can fly inter NWT.

This is not true. Although, there is a "home town" advantage that Inuit airlines attract more business than "southern" airlines.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

Quoting BE77 (Reply 12):
Are they making money yet (ie - successful?).
I really like what PD is doing, love their product, but, as an airline is it successful yet in it's own right?

I would say so. They have been launching new destinations like mad, increasing crew bases such as YOW. PD is doing much better than I had thought they would, especially since AC joined YTZ again.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 12):
For the rest of the thread - as long as we keep paying the fares, the prices will remain high

What choice do we have? I can't exactly say "well the fare from YYZ to YVR is too high, so I guess I'll just drive". Most people don't have the 8 - 9 days to travel it.

I have not kept too up to date with the NHL strike as hockey does not interest me in the slightest.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 13):

Yes, but flying into Canada's north, cargo is what pays the bills, not passengers. In fact, if you look at the history of flying into the north, it has almost always been a pure cargo or combi operation. Even the turbo-props flown as combis!

This was the point I have been trying to make all along. We constantly send our 732 combi's out full of cargo, but sometimes only 15 - 20 pax. How would you load a car / snowmobile in to a Q400?

The thing that bugs me the most is if the cargo is pretty much paying for the flight, why do they still need to charge 2k plus?


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
why do they still need to charge 2k plus?

Exactly because the cargo is paying for the flight. Allows the airlines to play games with pax.

i.e. we will try for 5 pax at 2k each. We could get 50 pax at 100 each, for totally sure but as soon as we sell 3 2k tickets we are better off. And if we only sell one well we are still profiting from cargo.


Soon as airline finds that there will be, on average, say 2.9 person who needs to get out - for 2k even, they dont want the 100 each pax.

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
What choice do we have? I can't exactly say "well the fare from YYZ to YVR is too high, so I guess I'll just drive". Most people don't have the 8 - 9 days to travel it.

That market is big enough to attract competition, plus you can travel via somewhere else (US, for example)...

Talking about our games folks, airlines know nobody would pay 2k for ticket no matter how much he needed to go see Canucks, because there will be a cheaper option.

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
They have been launching new destinations like mad, increasing crew bases such as YOW. PD is doing much better than I had thought they would, especially since AC joined YTZ again.

Does not mean they are doing well. Then again, does not mean they are not doing well.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
How would you load a car / snowmobile in to a Q400?

On the roof, duh... 



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
The thing that bugs me the most is if the cargo is pretty much paying for the flight, why do they still need to charge 2k plus?

Because they can.

Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
How would you load a car / snowmobile in to a Q400?

It reminds me of a flight I flew over a decade ago, YWK-YYR-YDF-YYT. The aircraft, a B737, was in a 2 pallet, 72 passenger layout. Coming out of YYR, we carried a car over the two pallet position, which is unusual as we rarely carried freight out of the Arctic.

In YDF, headed for YYT, while I was in the main deck cargo area, I was checking weights against the manifest, when the agent came aboard and asked if we had any jump seats to spare as we were full to YYT and there were a couple non-revs. We both looked at the car, (with seat belts), at the same time and burst out laughing.

NO we didn't ... but it was a funny thought.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
That's just it. There is very little traffic traveling to and from the Arctic that doesn't have to. It is not like the infrastructure exists to handle much more tourist trade than what is presently visiting. So, I really don't see more traffic being generated with lower fares.

You might not have to generate significantly more traffic...you may just have to steal the traffic from the other guys. I agree that there is a definite limit to traffic expansion up north...very small population scattered over a very huge area. Still, I really hated getting screwed by PWA when I lived up their many moons ago and relish the idea of some real competition lowering fares...not that I have any plans of visiting Inuvik again...a decade was enough, thanks.

I can empathise with residents of the north stuck with getting gouged on air travel...especially since there isn't any alternative way of getting south.



What the...?
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

First of all, not saying there isn't gouging going on, as I'm almost certain it does happen. However, a few points to consider about pricing in the north, it isn't quite as bad as it looks on the surface...

- Fuel. First of all, the government doesn't like new combis. The rules nowadays are pretty much out to get rid of them. Thus the northern carriers requiring combis are generally stuck with older, much less efficient aircraft. To compound this, fuel prices in the north are almost always noticeably more expensive than down south. Furthermore, there's also the gas in all your ground equipment, which will need to idle for a bit before the flight to thaw it out.
- Maintenance. When it's cold, things break. This too is compounded in the north, as the parts to fix it usually have to trucked up or flown in. Also flying heavy loads from rough strips and reconfiguring the cabin every other day will wear things out a lot quicker.
- Heating. Ever compared the cost of heating a hangar up here in the Yukon to the cost of heating a hangar down in Vancouver or Toronto? In addition, you also have all your other departments to heat, not to mention the gas and maintenance for all the coldbusters and herman nelsons that run solid for eight months of the year to keep the fleet from freezing.
- Equipment per flight. Buy a luggage cart in Vancouver, you probably have 10 flights a day to spread the cost over. Buy the same cart for Old Crow, you have six flights per week to spread the cost over. And that's ignoring the cost to ship the cart up there.

Again, not saying gouging doesn't happen, just saying one has to consider the cost of doing business up north is significantly more than down south. The proverbial $8 litre of milk came about partly because they can, but 5 of the 8 bucks was just the cost to get it there...



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5471 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 22):
Again, not saying gouging doesn't happen, just saying one has to consider the cost of doing business up north is significantly more than down south. The proverbial $8 litre of milk came about partly because they can, but 5 of the 8 bucks was just the cost to get it there...

I spent a decade living in Inuvik...I had a front row seat experiencing the extra cost of doing any kind of business up there. It really sucked that the only consumable that was subsidised by the feds was booze. Since it was federally regulated, they figured that it shouldn't cost any more to get hammered in Inuvik as Edmonton. You couldn't afford milk or veggies, but 5 Star was dirt cheap.

Westjet already flies to Yellowknife and Whitehorse but they might be able to cut back expenses a bit with the Q's.



What the...?
User currently offline320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Quoting heathrow (Reply 17):
How would you load a car / snowmobile in to a Q400?

On the roof, duh... 

No, strapped to the floats, of course.

I took a swan trip to Nunavut a few years ago, and the rather basic hotel room, which I paid for myself, was $250 per night.



The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 18):
Exactly because the cargo is paying for the flight. Allows the airlines to play games with pax.

I guess that's my answer then

Quoting Fabo (Reply 18):
That market is big enough to attract competition, plus you can travel via somewhere else (US, for example)...

True, but not many people are willing to travel 3 hours to BUF to fly to SEA and travel another 2 hours to YVR. You cannot book a ticket on an american airline for travel from one canadian city to another, unless you did a split ticket. I've checked it out in the past and it has been roughly the same price. And then you have to deal with TSA and likely ORD.

Quoting Fabo (Reply 18):
Does not mean they are doing well. Then again, does not mean they are not doing well.

According to this: http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCABRE8270YC20120308 They are posting profits, so hopefully things will continue for them!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

On the roof, duh...

:D That's a site I'd love to see!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):

Brilliant story! I would have loved to see the look on the non-rev when you told them they're sitting in the car!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):

Amen! Sure are getting royally.....gouged

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 22):
Fuel. First of all, the government doesn't like new combis. The rules nowadays are pretty much out to get rid of them. Thus the northern carriers requiring combis are generally stuck with older, much less efficient aircraft. To compound this, fuel prices in the north are almost always noticeably more expensive than down south. Furthermore, there's also the gas in all your ground equipment, which will need to idle for a bit before the flight to thaw it out.
- Maintenance. When it's cold, things break. This too is compounded in the north, as the parts to fix it usually have to trucked up or flown in. Also flying heavy loads from rough strips and reconfiguring the cabin every other day will wear things out a lot quicker.
- Heating. Ever compared the cost of heating a hangar up here in the Yukon to the cost of heating a hangar down in Vancouver or Toronto? In addition, you also have all your other departments to heat, not to mention the gas and maintenance for all the coldbusters and herman nelsons that run solid for eight months of the year to keep the fleet from freezing.
- Equipment per flight. Buy a luggage cart in Vancouver, you probably have 10 flights a day to spread the cost over. Buy the same cart for Old Crow, you have six flights per week to spread the cost over. And that's ignoring the cost to ship the cart up there.

You raise some very interesting and valid points. The cost of living up North is much higher, and I understand why, however there is an awful lot of gouging that goes on in the North regarding all goods and services I find.

I can certainly see how the temperature would come in to effect in multiple aspects. Heating a hangar like you said is expensive at 50 below, but an aircraft's engine wouldn't start in that temperature, would it? You'd pretty much have to idle them all the time.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
I spent a decade living in Inuvik...I had a front row seat experiencing the extra cost of doing any kind of business up there. It really sucked that the only consumable that was subsidised by the feds was booze. Since it was federally regulated, they figured that it shouldn't cost any more to get hammered in Inuvik as Edmonton. You couldn't afford milk or veggies, but 5 Star was dirt cheap.

Westjet already flies to Yellowknife and Whitehorse but they might be able to cut back expenses a bit with the Q's.

Yes, which is why I prefer somewhere like Tuktoyaktuk with a dry camp! That stuff causes way too many problems in the North.

I can see how WS has a market for YXY and YZF, but I really don't see them being interested in YFB. One can always hope though...

Quoting 320tech (Reply 24):
No, strapped to the floats, of course.

I took a swan trip to Nunavut a few years ago, and the rather basic hotel room, which I paid for myself, was $250 per night.

I'd like to see a float drag a snowmobile from YOW to YFB!

If that's the most gauging you experienced consider yourself lucky. With things like ciggarettes at 17$ a pack, you need to be making a decent wage working up there.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3379 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 25):
True, but not many people are willing to travel 3 hours to BUF to fly to SEA and travel another 2 hours to YVR.

Some are but they are low-yield passengers to the airlines most of the time and they will make 1-2 stops and deal with the border traffic to save a few bucks. My travel agent says BUF only makes sense its $200-$300 cheaper because of the time needed and I agree with her ad time is money to me.

In Canada airport users pay the taxes to operate aviation infrastructure and its a system I'm fine with.

Quoting heathrow (Reply 25):
You cannot book a ticket on an american airline for travel from one canadian city to another, unless you did a split ticket. I've checked it out in the past and it has been roughly the same price. And then you have to deal with TSA and likely ORD.

You can fly back to Canada from the US but that US airline is paying those same taxes as the Canadian airline for the same airport regardless of where the flight is coming from plus there are additional "International Flight taxes".

You may get away with this if you flew BUF-ORD-YVR and then SEA-ORD-BUF back because a bulk of the taxes are applied to flights leaving the airport and not arriving.

At least that is what my experience has been.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3164 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 25):
True, but not many people are willing to travel 3 hours to BUF to fly to SEA and travel another 2 hours to YVR.

It all depends how much is the price difference. The option is there, and the Canadian airlines can not disregard it totally.

As StarAC17 confirms:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 26):
My travel agent says BUF only makes sense its $200-$300 cheaper because of the time needed and I agree with her ad time is money to me.

Imagine BUF-SEA for 300 and YYZ-YVR for 1200. Guess what will most people figure? Their time is not valuable enough not to save 900 dollars over a couple of hours.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 27):
The option is there, and the Canadian airlines can not disregard it totally.

There will always be that traveler that will "take the bus or train" to save $50. I don't think the airlines are disregarding it, as much as they have decided that with 80% plus load factors, they don't need to chase that traveler.

Quoting Fabo (Reply 27):
Imagine BUF-SEA for 300 and YYZ-YVR for 1200.

Yes, you would have to "imagine" it, as it is not so, as noted above. The only savings usually are with Canadian travelers flying to the United States, as there or no "taxes and fees" to cross the border by automobile, but there are when flying.

Even that lately is not so great an advantage. I just checked Travelocity and in Feb, YYZ-SEA is $278.97, and BUF-SEA is $187.59, taxes and fees included. While yes, there will always be someone willing to make the drive to BUF to save $100, but the airline has to ask, do they really want that traveler any way?

There is often mentioned that there are many Ontario licence plates in the BUF parking lot. That is not surprising, there are over 1,000,000 Canadians that live closer or equal to BUF than YYZ!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 25):
Heating a hangar like you said is expensive at 50 below, but an aircraft's engine wouldn't start in that temperature, would it? You'd pretty much have to idle them all the time.

The turboprops I work on like to have the oil temp above 0 before start, but we get around this by having electric heaters installed in the cowlings, so we go out and plug in the engines (same as you would your car engine) if the airplane is going to sit a length of time. But again there's more cost, now you have to buy the extension cords, pay the staff to plug them in, and your power bill just went up.



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3379 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 27):
Imagine BUF-SEA for 300 and YYZ-YVR for 1200. Guess what will most people figure? Their time is not valuable enough not to save 900 dollars over a couple of hours.

When is a Tango or Tango plus fare on YYZ-YVR with AC $1200?? Hardly

Maybe to fly the next day which is what business travellers have to do and this would be a full fare ticket and whomever buys those tickets usually wants to pay for the flexibility it offers.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
There will always be that traveler that will "take the bus or train" to save $50. I don't think the airlines are disregarding it, as much as they have decided that with 80% plus load factors, they don't need to chase that traveler.

Yep, I agree with that. What I am trying to say, airlines will find a point, where it is no more unimportant to go for the "saving money" guy. That might be at 200 or 300 dollar difference, or as this suggests,

Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
I just checked Travelocity and in Feb, YYZ-SEA is $278.97, and BUF-SEA is $187.59, taxes and fees included.

around 100 dollars at this level.

What I am saying with this

Quoting Fabo (Reply 27):
The option is there, and the Canadian airlines can not disregard it totally.

really just means that they dont have to regard anything, at all in case of the North, but their own profits.

In economy that would mean that you have monopolistic competition on YYZ-YVR market, but a monopoly or near-monopoly (oligopoly) on the northern market. One reason why monopolies exist in real world was mentioned here - higher entry barriers, mainly cost, but also knowledge.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
When is a Tango or Tango plus fare on YYZ-YVR with AC $1200?? Hardly

It could, if there really was no other way to travel between YYZ and YVR.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 31):
In economy that would mean that you have monopolistic competition on YYZ-YVR market,

That's hardly the case with about 20 daily nonstops on 2 carriers, plus many connecting options via several other cities (e.g. YYC/YEG/YWG).


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3379 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3038 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 31):
It could, if there really was no other way to travel between YYZ and YVR.

WS operates it also and there is always one stop options through various intermediate airports that will be a lower fare. Furthermore the lack of competition is usually because of how much can be sustained.

WS will have a similar price most of the time also.

Unless you are booking to fly in the next week ot two you are not paying $1200.

I just looked at an AC YYZ-YVR flight leaving tomorrow and returning Monday that costs $1000 but if you have to leave that soon you are going to pay and that is the same with any airline. If someone has to fly tomorrow the airline's thinking is they will regardless of the price.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
That's hardly the case with about 20 daily nonstops on 2 carriers, plus many connecting options via several other cities (e.g. YYC/YEG/YWG).

Please read something on this subject. Monopolistic competition means, in economical science, that you are about as far from monopoly as you can get in real life.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 26):

You can fly back to Canada from the US but that US airline is paying those same taxes as the Canadian airline for the same airport regardless of where the flight is coming from plus there are additional "International Flight taxes".

Airport departure tax is always paid upon departure (or connecting as well for YYZ only). As I had stated above though, these fees are minimal compared to the other taxes being charged.

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 29):

The turboprops I work on like to have the oil temp above 0 before start, but we get around this by having electric heaters installed in the cowlings, so we go out and plug in the engines (same as you would your car engine) if the airplane is going to sit a length of time. But again there's more cost, now you have to buy the extension cords, pay the staff to plug them in, and your power bill just went up.

I can imagine this becoming quite the bill! Especially on -50 days!


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