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Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?  
User currently offlinecombatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 149 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21588 times:
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Just taking a look at the top 5 for the last 24 hours, and this beautiful pic caught my eye. But then I noticed something appears to be missing. I keep looking away and back at the picture wondering if it's an illusion. Can anyone shed any light on this?


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Photo © Paulo Santos - Aerospray




Bob
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21593 times:

Definitely not an illusion.

Maybe removed for Mx. Or damaged on a previous flight. As others will elaborate, there was probably a fuel burn penalty. Maybe a payload penalty too?



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinecalvo747 From Australia, joined Dec 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21530 times:

There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1572 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21480 times:

Quoting calvo747 (Reply 2):
. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect

Would there be a small performance penalty as well with only one winglet?



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21332 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 3):
Would there be a small performance penalty as well with only one winglet?

Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Tom.


User currently offlinefsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20424 times:

As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20245 times:

Just to note, the A330 (and presumably the A340 as well) can also fly missing the winglet, with penalties of course:


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Photo © Weimeng



User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2517 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19862 times:

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

- flap track canoes are frequently popping up in the threads here. The flap track canoe is just the fairing of the flap movement mechanism and not a load-bearing part. There is AFAIK a 1% fuel burn penalty per flap track canoe missing.
- doors can be sealed shut, and emergency shutes can be removed for maintenance, but then there is a passenger capacity penalty. (I've been on such a RJ85 or RJ100 flight with LX.)

There certainly are many more items...

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineharleydriver From United States of America, joined May 2010, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19448 times:

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

There are a lot of items. A aircraft has an MEL (Minimum Equipment List) that lists items that are allowed to be inoperative and the restrictions or additional procedures that have to be followed and there is a CDL (Configuration Deviation List) that allows certain items to be missing and the penalties associated like planning an additional fuel burn or payload reductions.



Department of Redundancy Department
User currently offlinecambridgeflyer1 From UK - England, joined Jun 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18435 times:

Not forgetting a demonstrator A380 flew into HKG from BKK in 2007 with no wing fences at all. Does anyone know if the A380 would be capable of flying with one wing fence only?

User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18241 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

What would the numbers be for both missing?



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3838 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18059 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 10):

Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed.

The fuel penalty for one missing is approximately 2.5% on the burn figure.

[Edited 2013-01-13 07:56:38]


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17740 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed

Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17535 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?


Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1895 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16594 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?

Increase of drag created in the wintip, that´s exactly what winglets and sharklet reduce.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.

not long ago also an A330 in Zanzibar has the same issue, then wintip removed, put in the cargo hold and back to Italy.


User currently offlineaxelesgg From Sweden, joined Jan 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15879 times:

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
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Engine? Not optional when you buy it but maybe lose one when flying?


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1895 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15618 times:

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

they are not optional but some of them can be missing or U/S, that can be found in the CDL or the plane (configuration deviation list) with restrictions and penalties and deadlines to operate under that conditions.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?

Manufacturers issue the documentation and aviation authorities aprove, amend, recommend changes or just deny, then airlines also issue the same or more restrictive amendments, but states don´t work in this small issues one by one.

Quoting calvo747 (Reply 2):
There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect

QF is also one of the very few airlines that have flown the B747 with a fifth engine on the wings, that´s also a very special case and not everybody is able to do.


User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14640 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?

This according to dispatch deviation guide, published by the manufacturer and approved by FAA/JAA


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14599 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed.

Since when?

747-400 Without Winglets! How Come? (by RootsAir Mar 13 2006 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1572 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14307 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Since when?

I think that's different! ANA and JAL domestic 747s never had the winglets installed, so obviously it would be ok to operate without them. I think what they were trying to say, is if the aircraft originally had winglets, and both had to be removed, then revenue service would not be allowed on that aircraft. I am guessing they could obviously ferry the aircraft empty to a maintenance base to have them repaired!



Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Thanks for the info!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3838 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14217 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Since when?

Since the MEL/DDG for the type came out.

The -400D is a variant that has been specifically certified to operate without winglets, amongst others.

The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch. I didn't make it up.
The type is clearly able to fly without both, but if it came to that, the operator would need to seek a special temporary permit from Boeing and their domestic Civil Aviation Authority to deviate from the DDG.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12854 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):
The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. The winglets seemed to be interchangeable on the -400D, flying with them or without them, but if it's a different certification, then it's a different certification.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12060 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):

I think the weight penalties may be performance based only; thus, they become important for situations such as hot and high operations, short runways or elevated terrain surrounding the airfield.



Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlinersmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8596 times:

Evergreen N492EV winglet was damaged while under Taxi in OTP (Romania) on 12/28/12 The wing marshaller was not paying attention while in a turn and the winglet hit a light pole.

The flight took a 10 hour delay and was on its way to DOV.

Yes all of you mechanics there is a penalty CDL for it missing.

I doubt it will be fixed with the financial situation EIA is in.

[Edited 2013-01-13 17:55:52]


Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 23):

Well, what's costs more? Fixing a winglet or constantly taking a fuel burn penalty?

I should think the answer there is clear.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
25 UTAH744 : UPS can only fly with the right winglet or fence missing because they only make right turns.
26 rsmith6621a : What if you lines of credit are in the crapper????? and you have abused your relationships with the vendors.
27 Post contains images rahulrahul : One time, I was on a LH flight to IAD on a 744, and a winglet was missing. It was intriguing me, and now I know the answer .
28 tdscanuck : It can't be in the MEL, it would have to be in the CDL. Tom.
29 airportugal310 : I can't speak to the to the financial situation per se, but if someone is still allowing the company to buy jet fuel then it can't be all that bad. B
30 Post contains images jeffry747 : And they do have a knack for flying with missing flap canoes, too.
31 zoneload : The plane came back to the states turned and went out on another flight. Returned to the states then went to JFK to have the wing let replaced. So it
32 zoneload : The 747-400LCF have the winglets removed also.
33 rwessel : Does my memory fail me, or weren't those removed to resolve a flutter problem?
34 akelley728 : That's what insurance is for.
35 francoflier : Oops, yes. It is indeed... As for the cost factor above, considering a very average 10Tons/h burn and a 2.5% penalty, then it's about 250 kgs of fuel
36 Zkpilot : several hundred thousand I'd say.
37 Semaex : Hold on a moment. There's a difference between "drag" and "drag". The Induced Drag and the Parasite Drag are the two main values we're looking at whe
38 135mech : As I recall from previous threads, they removed the winglets on purpose because of the drag they create for the heavy lifting of the longhaul flights
39 vikkyvik : Not exactly. Winglets are most effective over cruise, since you have a lot of time over which drag savings can be gleaned. If you look at widebody, m
40 Semaex : I think you're making a good point here. The large aircraft have all rather small winglets/wingtips, compared to their overall size. Compare that wit
41 Starlionblue : The A380 would do fine with winglets or raked wingtips. The reason for the fences is that it is wingspan limited to 80 meters. Fences are the most ef
42 HAWK21M : Just a Thought.... On the B747......If one wingtip is damaged,It can be deffered with a load penalty.What If the other side Wingtip is also removed un
43 vikkyvik : That wasn't my point. If your airplane is designed to cruise at M.72, then there's no need for a high AoA. You optimize your airplane for its design
44 bluewhale18210 : Per the document provided above, only one may be missing. So take 5000kg roughly off the performance and its a go. If both are missing then its a no
45 HAWK21M : What is the reasoning for this.....why not permit despatch & add a payload penalty.
46 rwessel : I suspect it's just because they've never gone through the work needed to certify that configuration. Losing one winglet has a reasonable probability
47 FlyDeltaJets : Why would that be the fault of the ground if the plane was taxing, wouldn't the flight crew be responsible for not hitting a light post? We cant sell
48 HAWK21M : Why 36hrs.....seems a bit excess....
49 Post contains images Starlionblue : 18 hours to replace. 18 hours to do the paperwork.
50 strfyr51 : More than likely Damaged and placed on CDL deferral per the Config. Deviation List. Perfectly legal, We've done it a few times at United though the w
51 HAWK21M : If thats no joke, still 18hrs is a long time....shouldn't 4 hrs be realistic.
52 Post contains images Starlionblue : It's a joke. Sorry forgot the winky.
53 Post contains links CitationJet : Here is a link to the FAA's website that contains published MMELs. http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Publication&doctype=MMEL The 747-400
54 HAWK21M : Ok...... But what would be a realistic time frame for a Winglet relacement.
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