combatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 80 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 19958 times:
Just taking a look at the top 5 for the last 24 hours, and this beautiful pic caught my eye. But then I noticed something appears to be missing. I keep looking away and back at the picture wondering if it's an illusion. Can anyone shed any light on this?
calvo747 From Australia, joined Dec 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 19900 times:
There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect
fsnuffer From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 18794 times:
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1382 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 18232 times:
Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5): As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?
- flap track canoes are frequently popping up in the threads here. The flap track canoe is just the fairing of the flap movement mechanism and not a load-bearing part. There is AFAIK a 1% fuel burn penalty per flap track canoe missing.
- doors can be sealed shut, and emergency shutes can be removed for maintenance, but then there is a passenger capacity penalty. (I've been on such a RJ85 or RJ100 flight with LX.)
There certainly are many more items...
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
harleydriver From United States of America, joined May 2010, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 17818 times:
Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5): As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?
There are a lot of items. A aircraft has an MEL (Minimum Equipment List) that lists items that are allowed to be inoperative and the restrictions or additional procedures that have to be followed and there is a CDL (Configuration Deviation List) that allows certain items to be missing and the penalties associated like planning an additional fuel burn or payload reductions.
cambridgeflyer1 From UK - England, joined Jun 2012, 38 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16805 times:
Not forgetting a demonstrator A380 flew into HKG from BKK in 2007 with no wing fences at all. Does anyone know if the A380 would be capable of flying with one wing fence only?
Semaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 773 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 15905 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4): Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.
Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?
Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1280 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14964 times:
Quoting Semaex (Reply 13): Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?
Increase of drag created in the wintip, that´s exactly what winglets and sharklet reduce.
Quoting Semaex (Reply 13): Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.
not long ago also an A330 in Zanzibar has the same issue, then wintip removed, put in the cargo hold and back to Italy.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1280 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 13988 times:
Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5): As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?
they are not optional but some of them can be missing or U/S, that can be found in the CDL or the plane (configuration deviation list) with restrictions and penalties and deadlines to operate under that conditions.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12): Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?
Manufacturers issue the documentation and aviation authorities aprove, amend, recommend changes or just deny, then airlines also issue the same or more restrictive amendments, but states don´t work in this small issues one by one.
Quoting calvo747 (Reply 2): There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect
QF is also one of the very few airlines that have flown the B747 with a fifth engine on the wings, that´s also a very special case and not everybody is able to do.
I think that's different! ANA and JAL domestic 747s never had the winglets installed, so obviously it would be ok to operate without them. I think what they were trying to say, is if the aircraft originally had winglets, and both had to be removed, then revenue service would not be allowed on that aircraft. I am guessing they could obviously ferry the aircraft empty to a maintenance base to have them repaired!
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4): Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.
The -400D is a variant that has been specifically certified to operate without winglets, amongst others.
The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch. I didn't make it up.
The type is clearly able to fly without both, but if it came to that, the operator would need to seek a special temporary permit from Boeing and their domestic Civil Aviation Authority to deviate from the DDG.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19265 posts, RR: 63 Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11224 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 20): The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch.
Ah, okay, that makes sense. The winglets seemed to be interchangeable on the -400D, flying with them or without them, but if it's a different certification, then it's a different certification.
I think the weight penalties may be performance based only; thus, they become important for situations such as hot and high operations, short runways or elevated terrain surrounding the airfield.
Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
rsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6966 times:
Evergreen N492EV winglet was damaged while under Taxi in OTP (Romania) on 12/28/12 The wing marshaller was not paying attention while in a turn and the winglet hit a light pole.
The flight took a 10 hour delay and was on its way to DOV.
Yes all of you mechanics there is a penalty CDL for it missing.
I doubt it will be fixed with the financial situation EIA is in.
Well, what's costs more? Fixing a winglet or constantly taking a fuel burn penalty?
I should think the answer there is clear.
Rock Lobstah!
25 UTAH744: UPS can only fly with the right winglet or fence missing because they only make right turns.
26 rsmith6621a: What if you lines of credit are in the crapper????? and you have abused your relationships with the vendors.
27 rahulrahul: One time, I was on a LH flight to IAD on a 744, and a winglet was missing. It was intriguing me, and now I know the answer .
28 tdscanuck: It can't be in the MEL, it would have to be in the CDL. Tom.
29 airportugal310: I can't speak to the to the financial situation per se, but if someone is still allowing the company to buy jet fuel then it can't be all that bad. B
30 jeffry747: And they do have a knack for flying with missing flap canoes, too.
31 zoneload: The plane came back to the states turned and went out on another flight. Returned to the states then went to JFK to have the wing let replaced. So it
32 zoneload: The 747-400LCF have the winglets removed also.
33 rwessel: Does my memory fail me, or weren't those removed to resolve a flutter problem?
35 francoflier: Oops, yes. It is indeed... As for the cost factor above, considering a very average 10Tons/h burn and a 2.5% penalty, then it's about 250 kgs of fuel
37 Semaex: Hold on a moment. There's a difference between "drag" and "drag". The Induced Drag and the Parasite Drag are the two main values we're looking at whe
38 135mech: As I recall from previous threads, they removed the winglets on purpose because of the drag they create for the heavy lifting of the longhaul flights
39 vikkyvik: Not exactly. Winglets are most effective over cruise, since you have a lot of time over which drag savings can be gleaned. If you look at widebody, m
40 Semaex: I think you're making a good point here. The large aircraft have all rather small winglets/wingtips, compared to their overall size. Compare that wit
41 Starlionblue: The A380 would do fine with winglets or raked wingtips. The reason for the fences is that it is wingspan limited to 80 meters. Fences are the most ef
42 HAWK21M: Just a Thought.... On the B747......If one wingtip is damaged,It can be deffered with a load penalty.What If the other side Wingtip is also removed un
43 vikkyvik: That wasn't my point. If your airplane is designed to cruise at M.72, then there's no need for a high AoA. You optimize your airplane for its design
44 bluewhale18210: Per the document provided above, only one may be missing. So take 5000kg roughly off the performance and its a go. If both are missing then its a no
45 HAWK21M: What is the reasoning for this.....why not permit despatch & add a payload penalty.
46 rwessel: I suspect it's just because they've never gone through the work needed to certify that configuration. Losing one winglet has a reasonable probability
47 FlyDeltaJets: Why would that be the fault of the ground if the plane was taxing, wouldn't the flight crew be responsible for not hitting a light post? We cant sell
49 Starlionblue: 18 hours to replace. 18 hours to do the paperwork.
50 strfyr51: More than likely Damaged and placed on CDL deferral per the Config. Deviation List. Perfectly legal, We've done it a few times at United though the w
51 HAWK21M: If thats no joke, still 18hrs is a long time....shouldn't 4 hrs be realistic.
52 Starlionblue: It's a joke. Sorry forgot the winky.
53 CitationJet: Here is a link to the FAA's website that contains published MMELs. http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Publication&doctype=MMEL The 747-400
54 HAWK21M: Ok...... But what would be a realistic time frame for a Winglet relacement.
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