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Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?  
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1954 posts, RR: 19
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

So I know this has been discussed before but I've never gotten a definitive answer. What is Delta's logic to outsourcing customer service positions? I know NWA use to use a formula where if the station saw X amount of mainline flights a week they had to be mainline positions. And I've heard of UA having a similar formula in the past. Does Delta have such a formula or rule?

I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.

For example, MIA:


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In my eyes, the ramp should be mainline. Look at how many mainline flights they have there.

Thoughts?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Outsourcing = lower costs for DL.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

If there's a formula, I'd sure like to hear it.

Agree about MIA.

And RDU...and CLT... and...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

Accounting and taxes as well. Many times outsourcing reduces assets and the whole depreciation mess associated with them and allows companies to write off expenses in ways that are more amenable to the balance sheet.

User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2398 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting DLX737200 (Thread starter):
I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.

For example, MIA:

Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 1):
Outsourcing = lower costs for DL.

That's why I will be spending a couple of months in SIN instead of MSP or ATL supporting an A330 cabin mod.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

But DL is not the biggest outsourcer. UA outsources alot. AA is now outsourcing. US, F9, G4, NK, B6, also outsource.

As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.

DL is smart about it, they own an outsourcing company (DGS), so DGS can provide the labor cheaper then DL mainline can and that money comes back to DL.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):
Agree about MIA.

With FLL down the road? Why should DL have mainline in MIA and FLL even though FLL sees more traffic...

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):
And RDU...and CLT... and...

SAN

There is a formula to prevent outsourcing within DL at non hub cities: Ready Reserves

Out Stations:
50% Full time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
50% Ready Reserves

Focus Cities:
60% Full time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
40% Ready Reserves

Hub Cities:
70% Full Time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
30% Ready Reserves



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4):
Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...

He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?



No info
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3496 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

DL outsourced the ramp at BDL to DGS as well. They have a high voulme of mainline flights. The rumor is there was a theft scandal that lead to that action.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2398 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 7):

He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?

My mistake; I read the post too quickly. That is a good question.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.

Opposing outsourcing misses the point, I think. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Most outsourced US stations (especially Piedmont stations) have employees who are pleasant and competent and often do a better job than mainline agents.

When NW outsourced those stations with fewer than 50 mainline flights per week (IIRC in early 2006) it was awful. The outsourced employees were pretty much uniformly surly and were generally incompetent.

I don't see any reason why mainline ground staff should handle airplanes whose pilots, f/as, mechanics, dispatchers, etc. are all outsourced. But outsourcing should not be an excuse for poor performance.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting DLX737200 (Thread starter):

"it saves money, yada yada yada"

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):

You will never see one because there is no such thing. (and even if there was one, they could just change it tomorrow. tough times, bad economy, high fuel, Richard needs a new car.....doesn't really matter why)

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer.

......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
With FLL down the road? Why should DL have mainline in MIA and FLL even though FLL sees more traffic...

uhh....really? What does FLL/PBI/RSW or any other airport have to do with mainline staffing at MIA? Its about mainline flights a day. MIA has ~25 flights a day, all of which are mainline. I don't have the AA/UA contracts on hand, but I am fairly sure that would case the station to be mainline for both. For comparison, SAN has ~20 mainline flights and 6 CR7s to LAX. (and RDU is, IIRC the larger station that isn't mainline, and DL/DCI are pretty big at RDU now. IIRC flights to all the hubs minus SLC. LAX/MCO/TPA/BOS flights also.)

I can promise you, both union contracts at UA and AA don't say anything about "company may outsource if airport is close to another with more traffic" Hey NWAESC did your IAM contract say anything like this? my guess is no.
Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......

Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)



yep.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer.

......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......

That is different. LGA is a hub like JFK. DL is making it work, plus I think the international flights out of EWR play a vital role.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)

So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3136 times:
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Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

I believe that the airlines are all about equal when It comes to ramp outsourcing, with the exception of Southwest. UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!! That's some major outsoucing in my opinon.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12):
So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.

yeah good job at putting words in my mouth. Man you pro company guys are all the same.
Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12):

AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.

......What do you want explained? UA/CO don't have a single group yet, as soon as they do, I'm sure 99% of the stations you speak about will have mainline.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 13):
UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!!

So does Delta. Only hubs that I know are *full* mainline is ATL and CVG. (note I don't think Delta has any DCI above wing at hubs.)



yep.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Man you pro company guys are all the same.

Please enlighten me....

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.

I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them? Who knows because I sure don't and you sure don't know as well...I am trying to provide my insight as both an employee and a former third party airport services company employee.

WN is having problems with their labor because they have the same view as you and now they are running into problems with all the former AirTran cities that were outsourced.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3051 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Outsourcing saves on labor costs, but generally service companies have a high rate of turnover, lower wages and the quality of work suffers as well. This comes from my personal experience with how service companies work. Granted having company employees is no guarantee of high quality work but the level of control is much higher.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2996 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):
I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them?

In the 90s and much of the aughts, DL saw no value in company ground handling. The amount of outsourcing compared to its peers should make that crystal clear. DL is the only carrier who had multiple daily widebody flights to outsourced domestic stations in that time period (ORD is a good example).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):

Thank you for the insight Cubsrule. I did not know that. I know for fact my station was outsourced because of the bankruptcy... But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18):
But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..

That's correct. Pre-b/k, NW had very few outsourced stations. They outsourced stations with fewer than 50 weekly mainline flights (IIRC) during b/k. Many of the stations that were outsourced in that period were awful. Most of the stations with, say, 50-125 weekly NW flights (which were mainline) were outsourced on the DL side, and when they merged all stations that had either carrier handled by mainline become DL mainline. Most stations with fewer than 50 weekly NW flights had been outsourced by DL long ago and remained outsourced.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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