DLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1850 posts, RR: 23 Posted (4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3032 times:
So I know this has been discussed before but I've never gotten a definitive answer. What is Delta's logic to outsourcing customer service positions? I know NWA use to use a formula where if the station saw X amount of mainline flights a week they had to be mainline positions. And I've heard of UA having a similar formula in the past. Does Delta have such a formula or rule?
I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.
mbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2699 times:
Accounting and taxes as well. Many times outsourcing reduces assets and the whole depreciation mess associated with them and allows companies to write off expenses in ways that are more amenable to the balance sheet.
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2097 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2002 times:
Quoting DLX737200 (Thread starter): I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.
For example, MIA:
Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 697 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1703 times:
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer. UA outsources alot. AA is now outsourcing. US, F9, G4, NK, B6, also outsource.
As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.
DL is smart about it, they own an outsourcing company (DGS), so DGS can provide the labor cheaper then DL mainline can and that money comes back to DL.
jetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 37 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1699 times:
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4): Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...
He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?
FlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1559 times:
DL outsourced the ramp at BDL to DGS as well. They have a high voulme of mainline flights. The rumor is there was a theft scandal that lead to that action.
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2097 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1456 times:
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 7):
He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?
My mistake; I read the post too quickly. That is a good question.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21214 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1439 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6): As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.
Opposing outsourcing misses the point, I think. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Most outsourced US stations (especially Piedmont stations) have employees who are pleasant and competent and often do a better job than mainline agents.
When NW outsourced those stations with fewer than 50 mainline flights per week (IIRC in early 2006) it was awful. The outsourced employees were pretty much uniformly surly and were generally incompetent.
I don't see any reason why mainline ground staff should handle airplanes whose pilots, f/as, mechanics, dispatchers, etc. are all outsourced. But outsourcing should not be an excuse for poor performance.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1334 times:
You will never see one because there is no such thing. (and even if there was one, they could just change it tomorrow. tough times, bad economy, high fuel, Richard needs a new car.....doesn't really matter why)
......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6): With FLL down the road? Why should DL have mainline in MIA and FLL even though FLL sees more traffic...
uhh....really? What does FLL/PBI/RSW or any other airport have to do with mainline staffing at MIA? Its about mainline flights a day. MIA has ~25 flights a day, all of which are mainline. I don't have the AA/UA contracts on hand, but I am fairly sure that would case the station to be mainline for both. For comparison, SAN has ~20 mainline flights and 6 CR7s to LAX. (and RDU is, IIRC the larger station that isn't mainline, and DL/DCI are pretty big at RDU now. IIRC flights to all the hubs minus SLC. LAX/MCO/TPA/BOS flights also.)
I can promise you, both union contracts at UA and AA don't say anything about "company may outsource if airport is close to another with more traffic" Hey NWAESC did your IAM contract say anything like this? my guess is no.
Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......
Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 697 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1271 times:
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11): Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer.
......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.
AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11): Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......
That is different. LGA is a hub like JFK. DL is making it work, plus I think the international flights out of EWR play a vital role.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11): Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)
So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
FlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1199 times:
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11): on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.
I believe that the airlines are all about equal when It comes to ramp outsourcing, with the exception of Southwest. UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!! That's some major outsoucing in my opinon.
Deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1185 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12): So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.
yeah good job at putting words in my mouth. Man you pro company guys are all the same.
Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12):
AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.
......What do you want explained? UA/CO don't have a single group yet, as soon as they do, I'm sure 99% of the stations you speak about will have mainline.
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 13): UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!!
So does Delta. Only hubs that I know are *full* mainline is ATL and CVG. (note I don't think Delta has any DCI above wing at hubs.)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14): Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.
I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them? Who knows because I sure don't and you sure don't know as well...I am trying to provide my insight as both an employee and a former third party airport services company employee.
WN is having problems with their labor because they have the same view as you and now they are running into problems with all the former AirTran cities that were outsourced.
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
FlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1114 times:
Outsourcing saves on labor costs, but generally service companies have a high rate of turnover, lower wages and the quality of work suffers as well. This comes from my personal experience with how service companies work. Granted having company employees is no guarantee of high quality work but the level of control is much higher.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21214 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1059 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15): I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them?
In the 90s and much of the aughts, DL saw no value in company ground handling. The amount of outsourcing compared to its peers should make that crystal clear. DL is the only carrier who had multiple daily widebody flights to outsourced domestic stations in that time period (ORD is a good example).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 697 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 991 times:
Thank you for the insight Cubsrule. I did not know that. I know for fact my station was outsourced because of the bankruptcy... But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21214 posts, RR: 19 Reply 19, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 953 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18): But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..
That's correct. Pre-b/k, NW had very few outsourced stations. They outsourced stations with fewer than 50 weekly mainline flights (IIRC) during b/k. Many of the stations that were outsourced in that period were awful. Most of the stations with, say, 50-125 weekly NW flights (which were mainline) were outsourced on the DL side, and when they merged all stations that had either carrier handled by mainline become DL mainline. Most stations with fewer than 50 weekly NW flights had been outsourced by DL long ago and remained outsourced.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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