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First Officer Sleeping While PIC.  
User currently offlinebeau222 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 117 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6369 times:

First officer found sleeping at controls of a Transavia 737, while Pilot takes Rest Room Break. Is there a set time limit for the Pilot to return back to the Cockpit?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/31/travel...p-at-controls/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6358 times:

So pilots aren't supposed to be sleeping while they are they only pilot in the cockpit? Is this a recent rule?

  



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6053 times:

Quoting beau222 (Thread starter):
First officer found sleeping at controls of a Transavia 737, while Pilot takes Rest Room Break. Is there a set time limit for the Pilot to return back to the Cockpit?

One of the many reasons we aren't left alone up front. I know of no domestic airline that doesn't have one of the FAs sit in the cockpit while a pilot is in the back.



DMI
User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5933 times:

This isn't a problem on U.S. carriers as one pilot is never allowed alone in the flight deck. Only a problem in the U.S. if both pilots fall asleep...

User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5925 times:

So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16999 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5925 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

Well, I think this is primarily for security. The F/A can open the door for the other pilot when he/she comes back.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5868 times:

Looks like the F/O goofed up.....Fatigue probably........Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

I'm hoping you've made this statement with tongue firmly in cheek.

Surely the aim of any airlines SOP's, is for safety of flight. Having been in 3 airlines during my career (from Europe, SE Asia and Australia), it's been SOP in those 3 airlines, that there must be more than one crewmember in the flight deck at all times during flight.

It would seem that the FO in question here is an extremely deep sleeper, and it takes a lot to wake him up. The tone from the door mechanism on the B737 is extremely loud, and for the life of me I don't know how anyone could sleep through that. One must ask how safe was this situation? If there'd been a TCAS RA, or Fire warning, would he have slept through it and compromised the safety of flight?

If we want to call it babysitting the pilot, then go for it. Does it enhance safety? In my opinion, yes it does.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5618 times:

Quoting beau222 (Thread starter):
First Officer Sleeping While PIC.  

He wasn't PIC. The PIC (the Captain in this case) was still PIC, even if he wasn't in the front.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage.

It's not SOP at all airlines.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):

So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

At many airlines, yes, in case the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4971 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
It's not SOP at all airlines.

Then its high time the Airline made it an SOP considering the consequences.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 727 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):

Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

Using the second definition I wonder of the autopilot can get PIC time?



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2321 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 10):
Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

PF vs. PNF?


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 727 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4857 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
PF vs. PNF?

Under the definitions for PIC he would have been the sole manipulator.

As PF, I would consider him the PIC should something have gone wrong while the captain was not in the cockpit (and until such time as the Captain was fully able to take control of the situation). situations where this occurred include the B6 flight last year and the AS flight last week, or when the Captain is on his rest break.
In simple terms, The legal PIC is unable to exercise the responsibilities of PIC.

Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF. Maybe things should be changed so that this does not happen, but there is no excuse for falling asleep at the controls.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4850 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 10):
Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

No, there's really only one definition

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF.

Luckily for this FO, it wasn't - the airline has stated it's not taking any action against him.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
but there is no excuse for falling asleep at the controls.

Well you don't know the specific circumstances. Maybe there were some fatigue issues... But then again, if there were, he shouldn't have flown.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
or when the Captain is on his rest break.

The PIC is still PIC even while sleeping in the back of the plane. The PIC need not manipulate the controls for any period of the flight to be in command.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineGApilot106 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Previous post: "Looks like the F/O goofed up.....Fatigue probably........Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage."

....the requirement for the F/A to be on the flight deck during this type of excerise is a U.S. regulation set by the FAA. As the article explains, rules/laws governing pilot breaks vary from country to country. Looks like the Netherlands does not have the same procedure involving the FA.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4394 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
PF vs. PNF?

It's not called PNF anymore. It's PM for Pilot Monitoring.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

At many airlines, yes, in case the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated.

Yes. And also so the remaining pilot does have to get out of his/her seat to identify the other pilot requesting entry, if the airplane doesn't have video monitoring.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 13):

Luckily for this FO, it wasn't - the airline has stated it's not taking any action against him.

Any Reasoning for this.

Quoting GApilot106 (Reply 14):
As the article explains, rules/laws governing pilot breaks vary from country to country. Looks like the Netherlands does not have the same procedure involving the FA.

Exactly the query,when things can go wrong.....why dont certain Regulators ensure it does not by putting this safety net in place.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):

Any Reasoning for this.

"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

From Avherald.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16999 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):

Any Reasoning for this.

"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

From Avherald.

If the F/O feels horrible about it sanctions might be counterproductive. The argument could be made that it is criminal negligence but on the other hand do you really want to sanction a good employee who will never do it again? Mistakes are something to be learned from.

I suppose you could argue both ways.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21523 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF.

I suspect that there was no decision made to fall asleep.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Any Reasoning for this.

Fatigue is very quickly becoming the number one cause of air accidents. Airlines that ignore this are doomed to become less safe. Sometimes it takes an actual accident or incident to see this, or sometimes it just takes an occurrence like this.

What the airline does NOT want the F/O to do, is to become public on how he came to be fatigued. An airline that thinks it is solely the crew member's fault that he is fatigued is very naive, and I doubt that Transavia is naive.

Airlines are starting to understand that pilots are not robots that can shut off and then start up and be fully functional. As this is a somewhat extreme case, I would be curious of what the F/O's duty looked like the previous 7 days. All days, then all nights ... early mornings, then late nights .... or how about assign him an early check in, then at 0400 reassign him the following night for an all-nighter to Greece and back. Who knows?

Does the airline have a fatigue management program? Who knows? I am not saying it applies in this case, but some airlines' fatigue management is simply ... "You are not allowed to be tired".



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

There is a need for a rectification program.....maybe a guidance class , whats stops this from occuring to others.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
There is a need for a rectification program.....maybe a guidance class , whats stops this from occurring to others.

It really depends on how committed the airline (any airline) is to safety. "Safety, as long as it doesn't cost anything" at one end of the scale, to "Safety, at any cost" at the other end.

The airline at which I fly recently had a fatigue caused incident that became very expensive. It did not take all that much arguing to make the "accountants" see that sometimes money has to be spent to be saved. I would like to think most airlines think the same way, but alas ... often we see evidence otherwise.

We have a Fatigue Assessment Committee, which is a volunteer/union committee. Every pairing is assessed using a "fatigue program", and fatigue spots are searched looking to be avoided and eliminated. Then air crew are encouraged to file fatigue reports, so they can be tracked and pairings adjusted if trends start to appear. Finally, air crew are allowed to simply "not fly-fatigued", without any reprimand. However, they are not paid for the flying not completed, and they are required to file a fatigue report. In this way, again, fatigue can be minimized or avoided.

I wasn't just kidding when I mentioned that fatigue is a huge safety issue that must be addressed. And airlines that do not have a Fatigue Management Program, will find that decision to be very expensive, if not fatal.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):

I wasn't just kidding when I mentioned that fatigue is a huge safety issue that must be addressed. And airlines that do not have a Fatigue Management Program, will find that decision to be very expensive, if not fatal.

Im surprised that there could be airlines that do not have a sms program in their organisation.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Im surprised that there could be airlines that do not have a sms program in their organisation.

It is all dictated by the aviation governing body of each country. And .. there is safety management, and there is fatigue management ... I think the two are related, some airlines do not.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 HAWK21M : Are you saying some regulatory authorities do no consider sms important........
26 longhauler : What they "consider" and what they enforce are often two different things. However, as a requirement to fly into some countries, (US and Canada for e
27 Geezer : After having read this thread for the second time now, two things come to mind; First......from now on out.....anytime I'm booking a flight on a carri
28 HAWK21M : And where will that Info be available?.
29 Geezer : I'm not sure if I understand your question ? I doubt seriously that I'll ever need to worry much about it, as I doubt if I will be taking any trips o
30 HAWK21M : What I meant was....How will you access that Information/what procedure will you use....
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