ncflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 447 posts, RR: 2 Posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11417 times:
Particularly United, it's just striking to me how they lighten their schedule on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Saturdays. DL and USAirways and WN, not quite so much. I haven't really looked much in to AA. I get that on Saturdays, they put their planes to use to leisure destinations such as Caribbean, but what about midweek? Are the planes really just sitting on the ground, anyone out there see planes parked doing nothing? It's just hard for me to believe they can't even cover the variable cost of flying a plane on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, you'd think they would want those million dollar assets moving as much as possible, even if they only made $1 beyond the variable costs of a flight.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6158 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11327 times:
Quoting ncflyer (Thread starter): Particularly United, it's just striking to me how they lighten their schedule on Tuesdays and Wednesdays
Exactly, I keep pointing out this trend every chance I get. Next time you roll through ATL on a Tuesday try to count how many planes are parked at the maintenance base and over by the Renaissance Hotel I think I saw 30. All the hubs are like that on these off-peak days. There's probably another 10+ just sitting on gates all day.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19263 posts, RR: 63 Reply 2, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11242 times:
Quoting ncflyer (Thread starter): you'd think they would want those million dollar assets moving as much as possible, even if they only made $1 beyond the variable costs of a flight.
Thought in another way, if you're only going to make $1, why put the airframe through unnecessary cycles and hours? Frames can also be rotated through the days off to catch up on MELs or deep cleaning to keep the fleet fresh and reliable.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6910 posts, RR: 29 Reply 3, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10900 times:
For an airline like DL, Fridays typically have the most departures. Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturdays (afternoon & evening) are actually the least.
Airlines have more excess/idle aircraft during these times. Where an aircraft may fly 6 flights on a weekday it may only fly 4 or 5 on the weekend.
phxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10835 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2): hought in another way, if you're only going to make $1, why put the airframe through unnecessary cycles and hours? Frames can also be rotated through the days off to catch up on MELs or deep cleaning to keep the fleet fresh and reliable.
Because wether a jet is idle or in the air - the airlines creditors still expect their payments. Successful utilization of airframes can make an airline highly profitably - look at WN and FR (minus winter ops). At least if the plane is flying some sort of revenue route - they airline is making some money vs nothing.
bluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 235 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10780 times:
Those days are excellent for getting some MELs cleared or getting that line check they've been putting off out of the way.
Other than that, having a spare or two at your hubs can mean the difference of canceling a series of flights and sending them kinda of on time.
Remember, pilots tire, planes break. 100% fleet utilization sounds great but within a day or two something will break and flights start to cancel without any slack in the system.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19263 posts, RR: 63 Reply 6, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10753 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4): Successful utilization of airframes can make an airline highly profitably - look at WN and FR (minus winter ops).
While true, there's always the law of diminishing returns to consider. If you schedule a plane beyond its capability to successfully maintain a schedule, it could end up costing you more while earning less. United learned that difficult lesson last year, pushing UA frames to the CO utilization rate, when they all weren't up to the task.
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2278 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10741 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4): Because wether a jet is idle or in the air - the airlines creditors still expect their payments. Successful utilization of airframes can make an airline highly profitably - look at WN and FR (minus winter ops). At least if the plane is flying some sort of revenue route - they airline is making some money vs nothing.
Airlines used to be a fixed cost business and at today's fuel prices are more of a variable cost business. If direct operating costs on a per flight basis increase, flights with small profit margins become unprofitable and at some point cannot even cover direct operating costs anymore. Then there is no point in increasing utilization because even excluding all overhead you still pay for the flight instead of getting any money out of it. That is why more and more marginal routes and flights get cut as fuel prices, taxes or other DOC items increase and reinstated when costs decrease.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10687 times:
Only if marginal revenue exceeds marginal cost. With fuel getting close to $100, marginal cost is rising. Also much if not nearly all midweek revenue (and remember it is mid day not st peak hours that are cancelled), is simply recaptured at different times through out the day.
Continental began this trend and Delta continued it. In my experience it is an excellent way to increase RASM.
jetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2674 posts, RR: 36 Reply 9, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10640 times:
Although not a direct cause, those slack days are great for front-line employee morale. After working the busy Thursday and Friday and worn out, the reduced Saturday makes you happy. Same for the Sunday Monday rush....that Tuesday and Wednesday are amazing to catch your breath and let your body recuperate.
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 53 Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10477 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4): At least if the plane is flying some sort of revenue route - they airline is making some money vs nothing.
Not always: Many engines are leased on a power-by-the-hour basis. If it isn't running, the airline isn't paying for it. Much of the maintenance cost on an airframe is cycle driven, so again, if it isn't flying, the airline isn't paying. There are a lot of part-time workers in the airline business too, so they are only used on the busiest days, when they're needed. On slack days, the airlines aren't paying a dime for their existence.
The airlines aren't stupid - if it made them money to fly on Tuesdays, they'd do it. For these business-oriented airlines however, it's more cost effective for them to cut back on the schedule one or two days a week than to fly 3/4 empty planes around the country buring fuel and using crews that nobody is paying for.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
HiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 617 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10441 times:
Have you ever been to LAS McCarran on a weekday? Tons of G4 aircraft are lined up on the tarmac. If it was any other airline it'd look like they've gone out of business!
Nazgul From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 46 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10181 times:
I don't think the big European carriers reduce their schedule during the week - yes on a Saturday but BA, LH etc pretty much have the same schedule Monday to Friday.....I think! I stand corrected if I am wrong.
davidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10181 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4): Because wether a jet is idle or in the air - the airlines creditors still expect their payments. Successful utilization of airframes can make an airline highly profitably - look at WN and FR (minus winter ops). At least if the plane is flying some sort of revenue route - they airline is making some money vs nothing.
Cycle and fly hours also worth money (airline's cost).
I doubt $1 over varible cost worth it.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6679 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9769 times:
Quoting Nazgul (Reply 12): BA, LH etc pretty much have the same schedule Monday to Friday.....I think! I stand corrected if I am wrong.
BA have hardly any flights that are not operated at least on Days 1 through 5. At weekends a reduced number of short haul flights often operate on the same route.
For example as at the start of the 2012 Summer Season the BA1301 and BA1305 ABZ-LHR flights departed at 06:40 am and 09:20 am on Days 1 through 5 but did not operate on Days 6 or 7. However BA1303 departing at 08:50 am effectively replaced both BA1301 and 1305 on Days 6 and 7. As far as I can see the way most (all?) European airlines operate is to use pricing to increase the number of passengers on "slow" days. But they also juggle the size of aircraft using larger aircraft on business-heavy routes at the start and end of the working week and on leisure-heavy routes at weekends and mid-week.
Looking at the three flights detailed above:
BA1301 was scheduled to be operated by:
Day 1 - A 321
Day 2 and 4 - A 319
Day 3 and 5 - A 320
BA1305 was scheduled to be operated by:
Day 1, 4 and 5 - A 320
Day 2 and 3 - A 319
BA1303 was scheduled to be operated by:
Day 6 and 7 - A 319
There were a total of eight BA flights from ABZ to LHR at the start of the last Summer Season (before IAG bought BD and integrated it into BA). The five flights that are not detailed above all operated on all seven days.
Nevertheless there were a few BA flights that did not operate mid week. For example BA438 AMS-LHR operated on Days 1,2,5,6 and 7 and not on Days 3 and 4.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2706 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9737 times:
It depends on how business oriented vs lesiure oriented your airline is.
UA is business heavy. T, W, are not popular business travel times and Saturday evening is not a big leisure travel time.
jAAy757 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9058 times:
If airlines were to use these planes on off days, when demand it low, they are not going too fill the planes, in turn severely reducing profit on the route, or gaining no profit at all. Also, if the airline was to have 6 flights instead of 4 (for example) on a Tuesday, this will take away from the passengers filling up the four planes that were SUPPOSED to be used, which will again reduce overall route profitability for the given day. With supply and demand involved you cannot raise prices on the 6 flights to offset the increased supply with low demand.
usscvr From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6793 times:
Forgive me, I have never been in airline scheduling, but owning my own business taught me many things and a few things strike me here:
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3): For an airline like DL, Fridays typically have the most departures. Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturdays (afternoon & evening) are actually the least. Airlines have more excess/idle aircraft during these times. Where an aircraft may fly 6 flights on a weekday it may only fly 4 or 5 on the weekend.
Quoting jAAy757 (Reply 16): If airlines were to use these planes on off days, when demand it low, they are not going too fill the planes, in turn severely reducing profit on the route, or gaining no profit at all. Also, if the airline was to have 6 flights instead of 4 (for example) on a Tuesday, this will take away from the passengers filling up the four planes that were SUPPOSED to be used, which will again reduce overall route profitability for the given day. With supply and demand involved you cannot raise prices on the 6 flights to offset the increased supply with low demand.
I am sure there is a developed metric to balance PAX load & demand, airport capacity, gate capacity, route availability, etc. It just seems to me that the airlines are constantly chasing the higher margins on heavy load/high demand routes. In comparison to lower loads & demands, (I may be wrong, but…) it appears contrary to the very basis of supply & demand. It appears that the airlines create artificial supply & demand by offering fewer flights on the traditionally lighter days.
Here is a crude (and admittedly over simplified) analogy for what I mean: Let’s say a 24/7 restaurant provides a product that is in demand - food. The restaurant has products for all times of the day knowing that there will a higher demand certain times of the day, and higher demands on certain days & dates, but can only seat so many customers at a time. The questions are: Does the restaurant change prices for the same product at different times of the day to maximize profit? Does it restrict lower price menu items on any given day at any given time to reduce lower margin items? The answer is No. The business knows the market, and structures pricing to cover costs and maintain a margin that to allow for profit. The cost of business may be higher one hour/day/date over another. However, managed well, it works in the end.
I am hoping that there are some folks here that can explain this to me because this particular facet of the airline industry has always vexed me. Much appreciation in advance for any and all responses.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19263 posts, RR: 63 Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6750 times:
Quoting usscvr (Reply 17): The questions are: Does the restaurant change prices for the same product at different times of the day to maximize profit? Does it restrict lower price menu items on any given day at any given time to reduce lower margin items? The answer is No.
Sure they do. Look at the difference in pricing for the same items on lunch menus vs. dinner menus in the same establishment. Lunch menus will often be priced lower, or offer a reduced size of an item to bring down the price.
strfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 488 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6365 times:
I've Been in the Business 36 years and 29 at United. A day of slack in the schedule week could get work done to prevent 60 or more delays or cancellations in Peak times due to Maintenance irregularities
especially when they might fly constantly for 42 hours before another mechanic put's their hands on the airplane again.
We already Tried the 100% utilization at United during Bankruptcy. It didn't work then. and it won't wirk NOW.
It's Not pheasable.
andrew50 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 96 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5803 times:
I was at IAH last Saturday, and there were probably 10 aircraft parked on the D hardstand. There were also a few parked at the maintenance hangar. This is not unusual at all at IAH.
rangercarp From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 124 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5737 times:
Quoting usscvr (Reply 17): it appears contrary to the very basis of supply & demand. It appears that the airlines create artificial supply & demand by offering fewer flights on the traditionally lighter days.
Actually, airlines simply reduce capacity (supply) on the days that naturally have lower demand. This prevents them from having to lower prices on those days in an attempt create artificial demand. I'm confused as to how this is "contrary to the basis of supply & demand."
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10889 posts, RR: 100 Reply 22, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5635 times:
Airline profits are low. Typically about 7%. So the in-demand days are still the profit while the other days, even with reduced flying, will not bring in the revenue.
Take a look at G4. They are the most extreme that I'm aware of.
Quoting ncflyer (Thread starter): It's just hard for me to believe they can't even cover the variable cost of flying a plane on a Tuesday or a Wednesday
The cost of buying/leasing a plane is 10% to 15% of the cost while fuel is 25% to 40% of flying. Park the plane and one saves on salary, fuel, and maintenance. Why would you fly with high intensity for 7% profit (at best) to avoid 15% of the cost.
Also realize airlines have aircraft with high lease/finance payments and others that are paid for. DL, G4 and others have little to no payments on their oldest airframes. One still flies, usually, the newest most efficient airframes and it is the paid off airframes that are parked. For DL or AA, that means a MD-80 not burning fuel or maintenance. Realize, some airframes have high fixed costs with low variable costs (typically newplanes, such as a new 738 or A320) and others have low fixed costs with high variable costs (the MD-80, 733, A319 (if bought used) and oldest A320s are prime examples).
Quoting usscvr (Reply 17): Does it restrict lower price menu items on any given day at any given time to reduce lower margin items?
First, happy 3 years on airliners.net. And congrats on your 50th post.
Actually, restaurants do variable loading. In my area, "early bird specials" do not apply on weekends or holidays. Many of the restaurants have a 2nd set of menus for busy days. They focus more on high profit items and cut out some of the variety that slows a kitchen and reduces profits. Discount booze certainly disappears from the table top specials. You know, that little triangles of paper advertising this or that drink/appetizer/meal special?
I prefer "the deck," but that is always closed during slow times. This means fewer waitresses/waiters, busboys, and cooks show up for work. The only way to do that with an airline is cut a flight. Airlines close off the 'deck' by cutting the least popular hour flights. That is one reason frequency is needed for profitability.
Now you did a 24/7 example. The airlines still fly 24/7, but let's take AA from LAX. On Monday there are FIVE flights in quick succession from LAX-DFW first thing in the morning and a sixth that can pick up any overflow. If any undersell, one is cancelled (never the 1st, a 752 usually, or the 767 re-position flight, I've noticed). On a Tuesday or Wednesday, I often see two or three flights of the six cut (some ahead of time, some the day of the flight). All of these flights happen (IIRC), within 2 hours. Its easy to tell which will likely be cut; they are scheduled on the MD-80 although I once saw a 752 flight cut too (amazingly slow day). The 767 and 738s seem to always go through.
Quoting usscvr (Reply 17): The cost of business may be higher one hour/day/date over another. However, managed well, it works in the end.
As do the airlines. However, the restaurant might have a higher profit margin...
jetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2674 posts, RR: 36 Reply 23, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5571 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22): Now you did a 24/7 example. The airlines still fly 24/7, but let's take AA from LAX. On Monday there are FIVE flights in quick succession from LAX-DFW first thing in the morning and a sixth that can pick up any overflow. If any undersell, one is cancelled (never the 1st, a 752 usually, or the 767 re-position flight, I've noticed). On a Tuesday or Wednesday, I often see two or three flights of the six cut (some ahead of time, some the day of the flight). All of these flights happen (IIRC), within 2 hours. Its easy to tell which will likely be cut; they are scheduled on the MD-80 although I once saw a 752 flight cut too (amazingly slow day). The 767 and 738s seem to always go through.
I believe it is against the law for an airline to cancel a scheduled flight within a day or two of operating on the basis of low demand.
Mid week and Saturday cuts are loaded into the schedule months in advance.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10889 posts, RR: 100 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5161 times:
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 23): I believe it is against the law for an airline to cancel a scheduled flight within a day or two of operating on the basis of low demand.
Huh? I haven't heard of that. Why would it matter if someone is shifted 20 minutes either way and consolidated onto other flights? DL cancels their DC shuttle all the time on demand and schedule. I would show up at the airport and discover flight X was cancelled and given the option of flight X-2 or X+2 that all take off within the same hour!?!
I recall a European law not allowing canceling the last flight unless the crew were past hours. But these were the first flights of the day with SIX in two hours. The first, third (IIRC that is when the 767 was repositioned) and sixth flight always went out. The 2nd was occasionally cut, the 4th often cut and I recall one Wednesday where the 5th was cut. So what is the legal issue? Please quote the law. I Googled and couldn't find one that applied to this scenario.
I do recall multiple weeks where every flight on every day of the week was FULL in the morning. (1st and 2nd business week of the year and convention weeks are particularly bad.)
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 23): Mid week and Saturday cuts are loaded into the schedule months in advance.
Then why did I have the option of booking those flights a week ahead of time and show up to find a flight cancelled but a seat available on the 1st flight (I showed up early) that was pricier (it always is). I would receive e-mails canceling the flights anywhere from 7 to 36 hours ahead of the flights. I found if I just showed up at the airport I was accommodated.
Of course weekend cuts are done ahead of time.
But one convention week I watched load factors go from 20% full a week out to all Six flights being over-booked by flight day. It is a route with incredibly variable last minute demand.
Lightsaber
Life is short, Live it!
25 Viscount724: AF does that extensively using all 4 models of the A320 family. For example, AF has 9 daily flights (8 Sunday) GVA-CDG. Looking at next week only, on
26 phxa340: That's why effective pricing strategies are essential as well as route planning. I would rather get my birds up in the air and breaking even than sit
27 777ord: Something else to consider is just because you see a number of them parked at such and such ramp, including Maintenance ramps, it does not mean its br
28 B757forever: Flying at break-even just to be flying will cause you to exhaust crews / duty limits and ultimately causing the airline to need additional flight cre
29 HAL: But if you fly them on a slack day, you won't break even; you'll lose money. That's the whole point of parking the plane. It costs the airline less t
30 jetmatt777: At my company we don't even have cancellation codes for "low demand". If we wanted to cancel a flight for low bookings, we'd have to have some weathe
31 airbazar: They have different business models. While US carriers are predominantly domestic carriers, these EU legacy carriers are predominantly intercontinent
32 lightsaber: I can only speak as a passenger. I don't know what code AA used. I'm just saying what I observed. Obviously not every day. But there is nothing illeg
33 VV701: Sorry. I am lost. Yes many European business trips can be made out and back the same day. Whether or not they are may be an other matter - see below.
34 jetmatt777: So if you are only speaking as a passenger, how do you know that the flights weren't canceled for some other reason, and you are assuming it's just l
35 PSU.DTW.SCE: Here is what are some of the drivers of demand increases / decreases throughout the week: For domestic trips, Monday mornings are very heavy for trave
36 B727FA: It is illegal to CX a flight b/c of a low pax load. Now, they can combo or roll it into another flight (both flights op on one a/c from a marketing pe
37 rwessel: Heck, even my barber charges more on Saturdays. They actually have a different set of prices on the back side of the price sign, and they flip it ove
38 FlyDeltaJets: I have seen other's say this as well but have yet to see anyone quote the pretaining statute. As far as I know the contract of carrage states that th
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