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TF42, Our Engine Project For The Airliners-200  
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

   Dear colleagues,   

this is a mail to let you know that our sister department, Airliners.net airframes have secured funding    (from a middle east consortium    ) for our Airliners-200 single aisle airliner    . While they had planned to use available engines (the GTF and Leap class) the market requirements have now forced the project into making a new engine in the 40 klbf class. As our airframe colleagues have not been able to convince    any of the established OEMs to produce a suitable engine they have now turned to us, Airlines.nets engine department, to conceptualize, design and certify a suitable engine    . The parts will later be contract produced by established tier one suppliers and we will final assembly the engine in our MRO facility in Key West Florida    .

The airframe specs are :



As can be seen they are already short on range, the interested airlines want a Transcon, TATL range with margins for unfavorable winds.

The engine requirements they ended up with are (before they ask us to fix their problem  Wow!   )




As our latest engine design goes back to the 1980:ies one must admit that we are in general a bit rusty    (even though we have discussed a lot  ). I have therefore secured some consultancy from industry experts that will come in and help us as we go. The idea is to start the design phase with a classical 2 spool turbofan employing established methods (and learn what is going on ) and see if we can fulfill the spec our airframe team put forward. We will then explore more advanced techniques (like ceramics, gearboxes, 3 spool) to see if this can gets us a better engine as the airframers will certainly run into weight problems (they already have) and ask for more thrust and lower TSFC (they already do) !   


To help with the process we will start with everyone putting forward books, articles etc that are useful for the department refresh  . I will also present our engine design tool that we purchased from the well known company GasTurb software from Dachau Germany.

So dear colleagues we have got a real challenge on our hands    ,

let's get out of those armchairs    and kick some    ,


I count on your participation in this very important project   

your engine department mgr "Ferpe"   

[Edited 2013-02-02 14:28:36]


Non French in France
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9691 times:

Dear collegues, could some cabin experts check the airframe departments ideas about number of seats? I have no ideas about seating etc but we don't want a late surprise that the frame will take even more pax+bags then they say so that payload-range problems we are already in will be even worse  Wow! . We need to know if we shall size the base engine larger then they say already from the beginning    .


Non French in France
User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9613 times:

Ha ha love this! I've always been saying we need a medium-haul 200 seater with overpowered engines....

User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9611 times:

Sounds suspiciously like a 757.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9540 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 3):
Sounds suspiciously like a 757.

Sure, that is why there is a market and no engine  . More fun to invent an engine together that is not available, also less sensitive to discuss for the experts we have on the forum    . But everyone can contribute, no input is off the mark, this is the chance for us all to learn something about those elusive engines.

As Tom said said when I contacted him, "engines are a black art", time to put a torch into it or a    at least  . Re 757, what about the spec, good enough for this market niche? The airframes department says it will be Al-Li fuselage with CFRP wings.

Re the engine requirements, I have calculated these using my frame model, the values should be good enough to use for an engine design me thinks. The fuel consumption around 0.54 is todays state of the art ie 787 generation so should be doable but as we can see the frame guys already is screaming for more so those advanced discussions have to come. But first we all learn while doing a vanilla first try.


Here some hints where we all can dust of our engine knowledge:

- General and good write-up: Rolls Royce, The Jet engine, you can find it online. The chapter 21 performance is good reading, the formulas are ok but use old units (mm Hg for pressure for instance) therefore check Wikipedia for modern ones http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Jet_engine_performance. Don't worry about all those formulas, we will have a software that does all the calculations, see below, it is good to be able to look up a formula to understand en large what factors are involved however.

- A good summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbofans and this article goes into the details with calculations examples. Together with the proposed PC software below you are fine with Wikis different articles.

- I got hold of a copy of a recommended book Cumpsty "Jet engine propulsion". The good thing is it takes one through a design example of a A380 frame with T900, EA7200 size engine with modern values for turbine inlet temps, compressor and turbine efficiency etc and most important of all in what order does one design an engine? He says Top of climb is sizing the engine (design point), cruise is deciding it's fuel efficiency optimization (off design) and one engine out take-off is deciding the top 5 minute turbine temp (also off design work).

He also recommended an excellent PC software http://www.gasturb.de which has a free copy http://www.gasturb.de/software.html where you all can do your own design work. Read the excellent manual for how to run optimization loops, there are many ways to do it. Also the diagram functions explain what happens much better then any textbook, the Wiki + this free copy are good compatriots. I got a full copy after fiddling with the free for a week or so, it allows one to also specify cooling losses and run more then a turbojet or 2 spool turbofan in thermodynamic only mode (no looses etc). Mail the guy at kurzke@gasturb.de for a non commercial personal copy, the price is really good, even my weekly allowance could craft it  .

- There are many NASA reports and sites which helps as well, here is a reference to an ASME contest for a UAV engine that uses Gasturb as the design tool and that reveals a lot of practical numbers http://files.asme.org/IGTI/33208.pdf . It is a small engine however so you need to change some numbers (and some can't be specified in the free copy), put in a massflow of around 1400 lb/sec in the free Gasturb and you come close to the numbers asked for by our framers, with losses I am at 1600lb/s right now for a first cut. Then play with different efficiencies, temps (1700K continuous and 1800 TO (3060 and 3240 R). For RPMs 4000 low spool and 13000 high is a good start, put the compressors at around 0.87 isentropic efficiency and the turbines at 0.9 and have fun!!

For any numbers your don't have just ask in the thread, we will give you advice (if from me be careful, blind leading blind    )

[Edited 2013-02-03 00:31:15]


Non French in France
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16992 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9532 times:

Given the current market environment, shouldn't this be the "Airliners-800", "Airliners-8", or even better the "Airliners-888"? 


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9529 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Given the current market environment, shouldn't this be the "Airliners-800", "Airliners-8", or even better the "Airliners-888"?

Bulls eye Starionblue, as these numbers schemes does not allow simple triple triple stretches (in the short form) the framers decided to go back to the old fashion numbers, the time of the -8 is over comrades they said      

[Edited 2013-02-03 00:32:04]


Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

The first Wikiversity link is a bit funny, on the page you land search for "turbojet" and you get all the relevant entries, the one about "jet engine performance" is the one with all the formulas. As said don't worry about these, the software has them all and happily calculates everything 1000 times while you graaadly get the gist of things  .

Use the page as a reference for terms and principles, you can skip Husk plots, we don't use these.



Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9450 times:

To help those who want to play with free Gasturb, here what you do once installed:

1. On start window, choose 2 SPOOL TURBOFAN and Basic thermodynamics/Cycle design.

2. You are now at design point entry screen, put in these numbers:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/TF42freeSWdesignpointscreeninput_zpsa36cab48.jpg and then the Alt (33000), M (0,82), mass flow (1400), efficiencies (0.87 and 0.9) , RPMs (4000 and 13000) and you are good to press DESIGN POINT, voila:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/TF42freeSWdesignpointscreens_zpscd1accf0.jpg

A lot of numbers, not all immediately useful and and understood (therefore just push along with the software and revisit the texts to understand what you see), I have circled the key stuff. Look at the stations tab to understand the station markings (the red arrow shows where most EGT numbers are taken, to far back for our purposes right now, we will use it later):

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/Turbofanstations_zpsbfcfd58c.jpg

3. Now play with the possibilities, press for instance Properties@stations, then select what you want to see along the engine stations, for instance these parameters:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/TF42freeSWdesignpointstations_zpsd71ba17a.jpg


Then it might be time to check the other so called off design points (your engine geometry is now defined, now you throttle it for e.g. initial cruise at FL330 or you check the Take off case):

4. Go back to main screen and press "Off-design". At the off design point you can choose your alt and M (we leave it as we want to look at what happens when we throttle back the engine after reaching initial cruise alt, but you could for instance put in 0 ft and M 0 and then our max turbine temp 3260R as a Max limiter under "Controls" to check out the TO 5 min thrust ). Press "Operating line" twice and "No" for more lines (you can do more lines later with eg varying Alt) and then choose what you want to plot, here is one example:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/TF42freeSWoffdesignworkinglinescreen_zpscbfcadbe.jpg

I have plotted how TSFC, Burner temp, OPR and BR change as you throttle the engine at our initial cruise level. Looks like we are pretty OK with TSFC? No, not really, in the sharp version we loose some 20% of our high compressor air for cooling, sets us back to around 0.58 and we now need work (and help from pros) to get to our target   .

As said, check the manual how you can iterate etc, not all functions are there for the free version but many, have fun while fiddling, it's free    .

[Edited 2013-02-03 05:11:24]


Non French in France
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9430 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
this is a mail to let you know that our sister department, Airliners.net airframes have secured funding (from a middle east consortium ) for our Airliners-200 single aisle airliner

Please do excuse the naivety, but I have never heard of this. Could we have some basic background on this? Is this a genuine, tangible project, or some kind of paper exercise?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9426 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Please do excuse the naivety, but I have never heard of this. Could we have some basic background on this? Is this a genuine, tangible project, or some kind of paper exercise?

It is 100% a fake project to have some fun together and learn about turbofans while inventing one for a fake aircraft. By playing the game you will learn a lot, not only about the facts how a turbofan is made but also a glimse of the internal politics in an aircraft project. Welcome to join the virtual team!



Non French in France
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7688 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9422 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 10):
It is 100% a fake project to have some fun together and learn about turbofans while inventing one for a fake aircraft

I see. I thought as much, but didn't want to offend anyone if by some miracle there was actually some kind of crazy real plan here.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9418 times:

Download the software and join the team, you will for certain learn a lot .   


Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9327 times:

I have found a really interesting Master thesis, it checks whether Gasturb, the software we are using, is any good for Bombardiers internal use to model the engine OEMs engines. The results from GasTurb 11 was compared to the engine manufacturers data supplied to Bombardier, in general Gasturb predicting within 2% of the real data. Pretty d-mn good, so thought Bombardier as well, so it will do for us as well  :

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&...1b0u6A&sig2=wDmMpWxJI0ORB7QO_RPBGw

This document has many practical sections but one of the best is the table 3.2, it gives the different efficiency levels of fan, booster, HPC, burner, HPT, LPT, turbine inlet temps etc. This is sensitive data that our experts would probably have had trouble to give us in clear, here we now have it to adopt. My data given above is conservative, it is on the level of engines conceived around 2000.

[Edited 2013-02-03 11:50:16]


Non French in France
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9251 times:

Fun...
Can i help for the cabin layout?
I was looking at an a310 neo... But it looks like a twin aisle narrowbody


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3735 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9238 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 14):

Hmmm. Cross section, parasite drag...

I think the 757-300 is the role model here. Single aisle, 6 abreast, classic but efficient.
It could be made a little wider. LD3 capability would be nice, but that would stretch it a bit. 'Low-profile' LD3, like the A320 family, will do.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9177 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 14):
Fun...
Can i help for the cabin layout?
I was looking at an a310 neo... But it looks like a twin aisle narrowbody

Absolutely! Please help with the seating, seat and isle withes etc.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
I think the 757-300 is the role model here. Single aisle, 6 abreast, classic but efficient.
It could be made a little wider. LD3 capability would be nice, but that would stretch it a bit. 'Low-profile' LD3, like the A320 family, will do.

You are right on the money    , it is also a little wider then the A320/737 crop, 3.90 instead of 3.70 (A320) or 3.54 (737). Arliners,net would not put a 1980/1950 cross section on their shiny new frame would they    We are asking the pax to sit still for up to 8-9 hours, better have some decent seat withs in there. I don't know if 3.90 cuts it, please check otherwise we have to ask the framers to widen the ship further  .

Re cargo, a LD3 would not fit 2 abrest in a SA unless you make it a bit pregnant IMO (and we don't want that do we  ), therefore the A320 LD3 low profile will have to do. How many would one get into such a belly?

[Edited 2013-02-03 21:44:11]


Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8996 times:

Ferpe,
What is the basic layout for Airliner200 ? 220 PAX seems 2 class configuration with a not so qualitative front section ?


A310-300
Juste remembering the A310-300 coming with a perfect 2 LD3 capable cross section is a
77-79 t OEW airplane (depending on TOW), > 5000 Nm with late 70's technologies

It's 46.66 m long and 43.9 m span.

It was a 243 PAX all tourist @34 in 8 abreast or 265 seats @34 9 abreast

Airtransat l'utilise encore : http://media.transattravel.com/airtr..._b2c/flotte/310_300_FR-europe.html

I'm sure it's worth looking at...
Sure you can shave as much as 4-5 t of weight going CFRP wing and new legs, optimised tail section
Sure you can have a 20% fuel burn gain easily
Sure you need something in the 45 klbfs+ range for 150-155 t MTOW maybe less ? for more payloard
What do you thinhk


Airliner 200
Otherwise with 3.9 m Internal (153.5") width you can go 1+4+1 (twinaisle) with 17.5" seat cushion and 17" aisle
See Frequent's Traveller concept here http://fr.slideshare.net/Frequent_Traveller, and 1+2+1 in biz with no excuse me seats
It will allow quick rotation time and cabin product differentiation

Nice to play btw


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8967 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 17):
What is the basic layout for Airliner200 ? 220 PAX seems 2 class configuration with a not so qualitative front section ?

You got all the dimensions in the first table, it is in the first brown section in the middle between the blue thin lines.


Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 17):
Airliner 200
Otherwise with 3.9 m Internal (153.5") width you can go 1+4+1 (twinaisle) with 17.5" seat cushion and 17" aisle
See Frequent's Traveller concept here http://fr.slideshare.net/Frequent_Traveller, and 1+2+1 in biz with no excuse me seats
It will allow quick rotation time and cabin product differentiation

Very interesting, what would it mean in a normal 3+3 in term of seat withs? I will look at what the A300 cross section means in drag etc, give me a day or so, it is an interesting alternative.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 17):
Nice to play btw

Absolutely, let's play with the aircraft and the engine, it is more fun that way. Perhaps we will find something REALLY interesting   Wow!

[Edited 2013-02-05 05:22:36]


Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

As Frequent Traveller explained me, there's a max width for triplet seats that is due to the fact that hostess/stewards should be able to reach the third person near the windows without climbing on the first passenger.
So basically airbus 18" triplet (wide seat) for the A320 is near to the max... so staying single aisle the airliners2000 whicjh is 7-8 in wider than the A320 may end up with the same seats but with an aisle "champ elysée style" at >22 in width.

http://avia.superforum.fr/t908-irkut-ms-21#17407 (I don't know If I can link it)

It can be good for turn around time, but I think twin aisle narrowbody can be a good idea.


BTW i only we can be sure of the internal width of the C919 and the MS21 !

My assumptions for twin aisle above is 17.5 seat width (similar to 787 @9 abreast I think), 1.5" armrest, 17.5" aisle

Ok for cabin length and width.... is length between front of door 1 to aft of door 3 (or 4), what king of exit configuration shall we use ?


User currently offlineboacvc10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8880 times:

Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
his is a mail to let you know that our sister department, Airliners.net airframes have secured funding    (from a middle east consortium    ) for our Airliners-200 single aisle airliner

I'd be interested to help out if the project has a better name! Is "N2XX" type satisfactory? AXXXX is airbus, BXXXX is boeing CRXX, ERXX are taken, and Airliners.net does not lend it self to good abbreviation as ANXXXX as that is taken as well.

Reason: If we are to get top billing as a commercial company at the next big air show (UK, Mid-East*** or Far-East), we need to have a catchy name, and fast, ad-space is limited !



Up, up and Away!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8795 times:

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 20):
N2XX" type satisfactory?

Absolutely, but I'm just the engine department mgr  cry  , well have to pass it to the framers (ie you all  ) to see if it passes    . If we don't have violent complains in this thread say in a couple of days it is done and dusted    .

[Edited 2013-02-06 02:55:02]


Non French in France
User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 722 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

Back in its day the A300 was the most efficient people mover, hence the term "continental shovel." I hear LH still misses their capacity on thick routes within Europe. If you gave the legacy carriers a good, light 250 seater with a nice premium option, I bet they'd bite.

If the plan is to go with two aisles, you're adding weight in the width, so I think you have to go 8-across WB or 6-across NB, but not 7.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2122 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8690 times:

You are forgetting the most important detail. Will it be controlled by a yoke or a sidestick?   

User currently offlinewingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8682 times:

This might be a little risky in terms of R&D, but I would like to propose my unconventional twin-core contra-rotating ducted dual fan engine concept...  http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/Peeto999/TwinPT6.jpg
I anticipate some resistance to this approach, but I'm fairly certain it could work! Kuznetsov NK-93 is the closest equivalent.



Resident TechOps Troll
25 JoeCanuck : I'm not an engine guy but I like to try wrap my mind around wacky concepts...no matter how out to lunch they may be..so here goes. How about an engine
26 LH707330 : I reckon that the weight and complexity of this will outweigh any TSFC gains, it's much easier just to have a de-swirl stage in the fan case with one
27 Post contains images ferpe : Nice picture but how do you propose that we analyze it's efficiency? The Gasturb software has a number of configs, but not that one
28 Post contains images bhill : Err...."vaned conveyor belts" pushing the air mass in....... Birdstrikes would be a thing of the past......
29 JoeCanuck : How about a variable pitch GTF?
30 LH707330 : I bet it's too complex/unreliable/susceptible to bird strikes. Let's assume these hurdles can be overcome though, then it gets interesting: assuming
31 Post contains images JoeCanuck : That's definitely out of the box thinking but it is an interesting concept. Some turbo props are getting so many blades that they are looking like fa
32 Post contains links and images ferpe : We will start to look at and discuss more exotic ideas but before that lets see how far one can reach the spec with a classical Direct Drive 2 spool
33 rwessel : Although injected slightly further upstream, that's basically what "conventional" water injection does.
34 JoeCanuck : Have at it, Maestro. Great thread. I wonder, even with more exotic materials research, if we're getting close to the point of diminishing returns for
35 Post contains links and images ferpe : In the post above I put in the wrong throttle diagram for Top of Climb and the beginning of cruise, here the correct one: Here one can also see the N1
36 LH707330 : Problem with that water injection is it results in poor combustion and consequently smoke, which is bad news these days.
37 Post contains links and images ferpe : Before we move to more advanced architectures I did try to reach our TSFC cruise goal by increasing the BPR from 9 to 10 and then 11 at the design poi
38 JoeCanuck : I find this bit especially interesting...and somewhat counter intuitive. Does specific thrust include the bypass air and the core flow? I assume Spec
39 Post contains images ferpe : The scientific definition of specific thrust is the total net thrust divided by the total mass flow, thus both core and bypass mass flows (and the mi
40 JoeCanuck : Just to keep things clear in my head, we're talking mass over time, right? Using your Concorde example, it's engine if afterburner is rated at about
41 Post contains links ferpe : Instant time, ie lb/s or kg/s is the unit for mass flow. They have the same thrust therefore their product massflow in lb/s * speed in ft/s would be
42 JoeCanuck : Very interesting paper...I'm fuzzy on the maths but the concepts and graphs are pretty clear. It does seem that the engine makers are running out of
43 Post contains links and images ferpe : This should be modified to PR 45 and 1500K, here the conclusive diagram from the Kurzke paper. This is an aircraft turbofan cruising at FL360 with ty
44 JoeCanuck : ...and something sometimes forgotten in the quest for those last drops, reliability. Airlines have become pretty spoiled with those bullet proof CFM
45 Post contains images lightsaber : First, Ferpe has been inviting me to this thread for a bit. I must apologize for not being proactive, but I had a reunion last weekend. Second, the nu
46 Post contains links lightsaber : A post that helps this thread on the GTF (warning, pdf): See slide 16 as the GTF allows lower fan pressure ratios and thus less noise and higher fan e
47 ferpe : Not up to now, but we could introduce it, we could have a tigther bypass nozzle for cruise that we open up for low RPM operation. What would it bring
48 JoeCanuck : To me, the true beauty of the GTF is the simplicity...it's dead simple to visualise how the gearbox improves efficiency. If one has a grasp of multip
49 Post contains links and images ferpe : Just as a reference, here the LPT tab from the engine dimensions of the BPR9 TF42, total weight was 10.000 lbm, thereof: the LPT is 45% !!! and it is
50 Post contains links and images ferpe : Slide 18 is about Thermal efficiency (not total engine) and it tells virtually the same story as the Kurzke diagram. I have put in the practical valu
51 Post contains links and images ferpe : To start the journey to look at a GTF I converted the TF42 in it's latest BPR9 version (the one with TSFC 0.54 at best) to a GTF with gear ratio 3. I
52 Post contains links and images ferpe : I have now had the time to have a look at the double aisle 220 seater. What I have done is taken the fuselage dimensions from the A310 in AlLi with th
53 JoeCanuck : Judging from the lackluster response from airlines for a twin aisle NSA, my belief is the N200 is the way to go for a medium range 180-240 seater. A f
54 Post contains links aviaponcho : Hello Ferpe Before doing some homeworks, some questions : Cabin length : what does it mesure ? front of door 1 to aft of door 3 (4) ? 5000 Nm is 10 h+
55 Post contains images ferpe : I have basically taken the A330-200 fuselage and cut it 22 frames a 21'' each, therefore it is bulkhead to bulkhead as far as I know. You can therefo
56 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks for all the cabin analysis, I have had time to think of it now and also had a good look at the A310 ACAP (they were so much better then ). IMO
57 Post contains images aviaponcho : I agree, they are not the same birds... Airliner200 is 200-220 PAX, but I think 10-11 h in a single aisle will be hard. Do you need a crew rest for 10
58 aviaponcho : I might have been to generous with the N310 LOPA ! Indeed A310 was 14/15 LD3 or 3 Pallets + 6/7LD3 I'll check this week for N200 and N310[Edited 2013-
59 JoeCanuck : I think what we're looking at is the elusive son of 757. I think the problem with a twin aisle the size of the N310, is that the 788 already basically
60 Post contains links and images ferpe : Not really, I don't have the aerodynamic constants for a high wing turboprop frame so it would be a lot of work. I got these from textbooks and the S
61 aviaponcho : Ferpe Is the N200 fuse circular ? you show : width 4.2 m diameter 4.1 m height 4.01 m, but 4.01 m is the same as 757-200 height... I've done some home
62 aviaponcho : I can't edit So I add 787-8 PAx count estimate with the same layout : 290-300 PAX (12 full flat biz / 28 régional biz) and a N300 with the same A300
63 Post contains images ferpe : I've read it all with interest, we should have had someone like LAXDESI who could do a revenue-cost scenario of it all, don't know if you can make it
64 aviaponcho : Thanks If you go developping a new airframe you must think "derivatives" / "family" For N2XX : N200 : 50 m fuse / 190-200 PAX 3 class / 250-260 PAX on
65 JoeCanuck : Not only family, I think it's important to look at market positioning as well. The n 300 series really doesn't have much room in the marketplace.The
66 Post contains images aviaponcho : Yes that's what's being discussed. The 787 and the A330-200 a much bigger than A310/A300 There's a true gap, N200 addresses the low end and overlap w
67 Post contains images ferpe : Hold your horses, WE are all in this together . We trash out what we think can be sold in the market (and with WE I mean everyone at Airliners.net, n
68 Post contains images aviaponcho : You are also the chief aero designer Ferpe Going N310 implies building some margin in your (our ?) TF42 ... going all the way to 50 klbs ? Going N200,
69 JoeCanuck : Indeed...and it's been a very interesting thread so far...at least for me. It's bloody refreshing to be able to discuss different opinions freely wit
70 Post contains images ferpe : Might be, but as for all products: what is important is what would sell . Now which one of the N200 and N310 would bring in the most revenue and marg
71 Post contains images aviaponcho : Hard to tell ! Maybe in the real life Boeing will do the N200 family (with LeapGenX) and Airbus the N310 Family with GTF Hum why not replace Boeing by
72 Aircellist : Not following everything in detail, but that's one pleasant thread!
73 Post contains links and images ferpe : Some might think things have gone quiet but I have been poking around . After the initial design and the good comments from Lightsaber I thought I bet
74 aviaponcho : So what ? You need to rework the TF42 ? Did you make you mind on N200 or N310 ?
75 Post contains links and images ferpe : Well I tried to get others to chip and help us with the choice, perhaps we are to serious with all these numbers, it is just having a bit of fun spec
76 JoeCanuck : I went the other way with the N200. My crystal ball, (cracked and cloudy as it is), sees a real potential for a 180-240 seat single aisle, low seat m
77 Post contains images ferpe : Let me run home one more thing about this efficiency thing, not only does it affect how high it makes sense to run the compression in the engine, it a
78 JoeCanuck : I've been mulling over this topic for a while and I keep coming back to a plane that is still in production, (and one I like flying on), which could s
79 Post contains links and images ferpe : Lets finish the TF42 GTF engine before we go to 3 spool variants (to learn about the principal differences between DDTF, GTF and Tri Spool ones) and t
80 Aviaponcho : Hello Ferpe Wasn't the variable area nozzle a way to increase climb thrust ? It's on the PW1500G and the PW1100G if i'm not mistaken Regards
81 ferpe : Here is how I understand the issue of variable Turbofan nozzels: A turbofan nozzle is designed to give the engine fan optimal working conditions for
82 Post contains links and images Aviaponcho : For the Cseries, You're right it has been dropped (-> it wa supposed to permet 2% fuel burn gain !) http://www.goodrich.com/gr-ext-templ...t%20Aero
83 Post contains images ferpe : Great stuff Poncho, thanks for the research . This variable nacelle stuff in really interesting. When you design a civil turbofan engine one critical
84 Aviaponcho : Ferpe, officially BPR for PW1500G and PW1100G is 12:1, no change in BPR (at which thrust setting ?) What can be harder for the PW1100G is the thrust r
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