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Questions Re: Squawk 7600  
User currently offlinepeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

QFA93 just squawked 7600 (radio/communication failure) and then disappeared from the screen.

Q1) Is it possible that the communication failure related to the transponder and that's why the plane is no longer visible?
Q2) What's the procedure following a 7600 squawk? Does the plane have to make an immediate landing or can it continue to its destination?

Thanks in advance for the info!


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4538 times:
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Quoting peh (Thread starter):
What's the procedure following a 7600 squawk? Does the plane have to make an immediate landing or can it continue to its destination?

The official procedure is generally spoken: Continue on your flight plan to your destination and follow the flight plan as closely as possible.

But if this would be done in real life is another question. I am not sure if I want to fly from FRA to the US without a clearance for the NAT or flying eastbound over Afganistan, Iran, Iraq without entry clearance...

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinejgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting peh (Thread starter):
Q1) Is it possible that the communication failure related to the transponder and that's why the plane is no longer visible?

If i were to guess I would say that the comm failure is possibly part of a larger problem, electric/electronic in nature, which caused the transponder to stop operating.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4460 times:

most airliners have 2 transponders

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4416 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
Quoting peh (Thread starter):
What's the procedure following a 7600 squawk? Does the plane have to make an immediate landing or can it continue to its destination?

The official procedure is generally spoken: Continue on your flight plan to your destination and follow the flight plan as closely as possible.

IFR rules in the US are as follows.

Altitude should be the highest of:
- Assigned Altitude
- Expected Altitude
- Minimum Enroute/Safe Altitude

Route in descending order of priority:
- Assigned
- Vectored
- Expected
- Filed

Leaving the clearance limit:
- Plan to leave the clearance limit of the IAF at the time in your flight plan.
- If you arrive at the clearance limit before then, hold there until that expected arrival time.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
But if this would be done in real life is another question. I am not sure if I want to fly from FRA to the US without a clearance for the NAT or flying eastbound over Afganistan, Iran, Iraq without entry clearance...

As you say. In ALL cases, make decisions in accordance with safety, as that is your primary concern. The rules don't absolve you from using your brain to make sound decisions. 



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6408 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
As you say. In ALL cases, make decisions in accordance with safety, as that is your primary concern. The rules don't absolve you from using your brain to make sound decisions.

Exactly. If I ever found myself in a lost comms situation, and if I encountered decent VFR conditions, I would probably just land at an uncontrolled field (one with decent repair facilities) and phone the Flight Service Station to report being safely down and to cancel IFR  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

If VFR: Remain VFR and land as soon as practical.

If IFR: The MEA AVEF rule applies as mentioned earlier.



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offline113312 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 573 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

You said that the flight disappeared from the screen; which screen? Flightaware, ATC display? Different sources drive different displays with respect to ATC or publicly available internet sources. Internet tracking usually involves a feed from an ATC that might be based on transponders or ADS sources. ATC can also filter what is fed out to internet sources.

This original post does not provide sufficient information to give an accurate answer.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21680 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
IFR rules in the US are as follows.

A good summary, but you forgot the first one: if you're in VMC, continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practical.

Since you're rarely going to be in IMC for an entire flight, that's likely going to apply to you at some point.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
IFR rules in the US are as follows.

A good summary, but you forgot the first one: if you're in VMC, continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practical.

Since you're rarely going to be in IMC for an entire flight, that's likely going to apply to you at some point.


Fair point. I guess I took it for granted. Big grin

[Edited 2013-02-13 17:08:44]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting 113312 (Reply 7):
You said that the flight disappeared from the screen; which screen?

^^^^^This.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21680 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
I guess I took it for granted.

You wouldn't be the first. When I was helping people prepare for their instrument checkrides, I'd ask them what would happen if their radio failed and 90% of them went straight to what course they'd fly, what altitude they'd fly, etc. Which is all well and good, but if you start going through all that when it's severe clear outside, you're missing the forest for the trees.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
I guess I took it for granted.

You wouldn't be the first. When I was helping people prepare for their instrument checkrides, I'd ask them what would happen if their radio failed and 90% of them went straight to what course they'd fly, what altitude they'd fly, etc. Which is all well and good, but if you start going through all that when it's severe clear outside, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Thankfully my examiner didn't ask me then! She was focused more on things like tailplane icing on approach-  Wow!



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4597 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3771 times:
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Nice discussion.
A modern airliner is equipped with
- 3 VHF sets
- 1 ACARS
- 1 SatCom
- 2 transponders

If a long haul airliner, it will have furthermore
- 2 HF sets
all on different buses.
So, a complete radio failure is sometrhing which is at the very least very remote... so that if it happened, you'd have a lot more on your hand than just lack of communications : In this respect, the first item of the loss of communication procedure, after A7600, is to establish a two-way link with someone with all the means available... then, and only then, we'd start following the official loss of com procedures... which vary from one place to another, one flight condition to another, one area to another... all are published in the local AIP.



Contrail designer
User currently offlinejbcarioca From Brazil, joined Jan 2013, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

Seems very likely that a modern airliner encountering a total communications failure probably would be inclined to squawk 7700 rather than 7600 because there would be many, many things going very wrong. 7600 can easily happen with small aircraft that do not have backup systems but that would be vanishingly rare in a modern airliner.

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
A good summary, but you forgot the first one: if you're in VMC, continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practical.

From an ATC perspective, they have no idea when a flight may encounter VMC conditions. There is expectation bias on their part as to what the flight will do. An IFR flight starting a 360 spiral just to stay VMC at a moments notice might not be the best idea. I have met many controllers who said they would just prefer a flight continue on its flight planned (and expected) route. They have the route cleared to destination.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
Thankfully my examiner didn't ask me then! She was focused more on things like tailplane icing on approach-

Thankfully, your examiner has a big picture, and focused on things which are really critical to safety.

[Edited 2013-03-03 06:21:28]


FLYi
User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2308 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Usually when an airliner goes nordo, its just for a few minutes. Due to somebody bumping a switch, headset unplugged, etc. I cant think of the last time someone went nordo for more than 10 minutes. (Except those guys in Hawaii and Northwest at MSP...different circumstance).

If you were using a third party software to see the flight, it probably disappeared because its transponder code switched to a non-discreet code that it didnt recognize. On my scope, if someone squawks 7600, a little red "RF" appears above their tag and an audible alarm goes off. The tag still shows the previous code's information, but im not using third party software  

atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
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