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How You The Pilot Correct This?  
User currently offlineDavid B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Posted (12 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Steer hard to the left?




Or go for a swim?


Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1118 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

I would have, and he should have gone around looooong ago, you should never put your passengers in that kind of danger. But as some people say "Real men never go around!"

User currently offlineB767-400er From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2000, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

First picture is a typical crosswind landing at Kai Tak. Perhaps the pilot didn't kick the rudder fast enough to shrighten out before touch down. If you don't use crab capibilities of the 747, the events in the second picture will happen.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy You should see the Korean Cargo pilots. Fresh out of fighter jet school(doing the same things with a 747)  Laugh out loud

Tony,
B767-400er


User currently offlineSophiemaltese From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2064 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

"Real men never go around!"

Maybe this is why, when I was flying with an instructor other than my usual one and I went to make a go around, he grabbed the controls and finished the landing. My regular CFI told me, "He should have let you go around."


User currently offlineBarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 983 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

The 747 is designed to land in a crab, up to 45% off centerline. This prevents dragging an outside engine (second pic).


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6030 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

Alas, I can't remember which airline was operating the aircraft in the first image, but I've been told that there is a sort of honour code between Asian pilots, where a go-around would mean a great shame for the pilot, as it indicates that he has not been focusing enough on landing the aircraft.

Can anyone confirm that this exists?


User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

If I'm flying, I would have gone around. I guess this kind of landings in Kai Tak during in crosswinds are inveitable, but isn't it a bit too much of a danger, especially that guy in the first pic?


Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4224 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5108 times:

Uhhh..note that that is not a typical crosswind landing at kai tak..sheesh. He should have gone around long ago.

I super pilot! I not go around! I scrape engine on ground! I get most popular picture on airliners.net!

My dad flew into that airport many many times when he was on the 747-200 and never crapped a landing like that.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineB767-400er From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2000, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

I've flown into Kai Tak around 70 times during the period of 1994 until closing of that airport. In fact, my father used to work there managing the radio systems.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy I can't say it's an fequent occurance, but if there is a slight amount of crosswind, perhaps a gust that the pilot didn't anticapate, it would result in a crab landing because there is very little time for correcting with a bank after(or during) the 47 degree starboard turn. I've remembered about 5 (noticable ones anyways) crab landings, 2 of them were during typhoons.

As to pilots worrying about harming their pride in a go-around, I think most pilots (note I said MOST  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ) are smart enough to know that killing 200+ pax and more then likely him/herself plus a 180 million dollor plane, is worst then maybe a couple of laughs from other pilots.

The good old days at Kai Tak will be missed. Espically now with the not-that-exciting CLK.

Tony,
B767-400er
CYYZ RWYs 24R-06L and 24L-06R are now 23-05 and 24R-06L!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineA/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5053 times:

Sorry mate but that has got to be the biggest load of crap i've heard in a long time , you cannot justify a tradition being the result for the death of 450 + people, think about what your saying, you can't kamikazee a 747!!!!! I dont know were you've heard that from but in this industry you have to learn to seperate the good knowledge from the b'' '' '' ''shi'', put your brain into gear before typing,
regards,
a/c


User currently offlineB767-400er From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2000, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

Agreed A/c train! It would be more shameful to see a couple hundred dead people and a wrecked plane then a simple, normal go-around.

Tony,
B767-400er



User currently onlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Only explanation is that this is a former J-3 pilot trying to land across the runway rather than down it. Actually, if good landings come out of good approaches, I'd love to see a video of the whole approach. It was bound to never have been stabilized and should have been a go-around.

User currently offlineNotar520AC From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4965 times:

Can you say, "Surfing Kai Tak?"


BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
User currently offlineMagicMan_841 From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

These things are designed to substain a landing with an angle of over 45º between the gear and the runway....hee hee....the pilot must have been puckered to it's brain on that one tho...

Magic


User currently offlineGive it a GO From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4881 times:

Corrections can also be made through the use of differential reverse thrust.

User currently onlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4870 times:

Correct what? This ceased being a landing at the runway threshold and became a crash, instead. I hope that the captain got his ticket lifted.

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6030 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Like I said, please correct me if I was wrong. And so, obviously I was.
By the way, show me one point where I said that it was OK to kamikaze the 747. I just said that there was some sort of thing going on, where a go-around meant a great shame.


User currently offlineNorseman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

Sorry folks, I've heard on numerous occasions from people who train Asian pilots that this mentality does exist. I'm not saying it happens regularly, but it does exist. Pilots get so focused on landing the plane that going around doesn't even come into their mind. The idea of electing a go-around means that they have failed. I hate to tell you, but It's not like this stuff doesn't happen state-side as well. There have been many incidences caused by pilots electing to not go-around when they obviously should have.

User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4844 times:


Guys, just an observation:

Using traditional crosswind technique (landing with one wing low) is not an option in a 747, or any other airplane with engines hanging off the wings. And you don't think the engineers at Boeing were aware of this? These airplanes are designed for this.

The pilots of this particular flight had two options - land with the crab angle, or divert. I do not know what I would have done, because I was not at the controls during the approach. But I think instantly pass judgements like "they should have gone around" is to do so without all the facts.


User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4829 times:



PS - I'm a real man, and I go around.


User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

It is correct that the 747 is designed to be capable of this kind of landing, but pilots are not taught to land like that on a dry runway. We are taught to kick out the rudder upon flaring, whilst using aileron to keep the wings level. By this time, you will not drift off centreline too much.

When landing on a wet runway it is permissable (But not very good technique) to land with the crab, the slippery runway will aide in helping you to correct and track the centerline.

The photos show landings quite often done when flying the IGS with a tailwind. Pilots tend to forget that they're going to get blown wide, and have to get a very large crab angle to get back over the centerline. Often they land still in that attitude rather than go-around.


User currently offlineSUDDEN From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

Just makes me think....

Does this have to be crosswindlanding?
I meen alot of approaches to Kai Tak looked like that cause of the heavy right turn at the checkerboard. Could it have been that and not a heavy crosswind?

I don't have all the facts so I stand corrected if that's the case.

Regards!
Sudden
 Smile



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4790 times:

Left rudder. LEFT RUDDER!!!!


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

"We are taught to kick out the rudder upon flaring, whilst using aileron to keep the wings level."

For example, when we kick the left rudder, will the plane tend to roll left or right?

Thanks

alvin



Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 872 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4727 times:

Mr BA - If you kick in left rudder the aircraft yaws left, right wing travels through the air faster, develops more lift, so rolls left also. On that basis the answer would have been to feed in left rudder and simultaneous co-ordinated right aileron. Thats the technique for x-wind landings in aircraft which are able to land wing low.

A/c train - CPH-R is correct, there is a cultural trait amongst Asians which equates seniority with infallibility, and makes it difficult for juniors (read co-pilots) to correct or even to question the actions of their seniors (i.e. Captains, or even FEs).

Its known as "saving face", and going around does indeed mean, to many, that mistakes were made leading up to the GA. This is unspeakable, and to admit it is disgrace.

For evidence of the phenomenon, and to allow you to apologise to CPH-R for your post, read the Delta Airlines safety audit which they did on Korean Air a couple of years ago. It contains numerous references to the issue in question, as well as being a frightening inditement of Korean's safety culture.

I haven't seen the Korean Stansted 747F crash report, but believe the FE and FO both made verbal references to the attitude problem, but neither took positive action. The FO, with a functioning attitude indicator, sat and watched the captain slice it into the ground.

For a junior crew member, daring to infer a critisism of the captain wouldn't be worth the risk of the disgrace if he found himself wrong.

Its not only other cultures. A classic example which now figures prominently in CRM training involves an American (but NOT AA) 727 crew landing at night. Throughout the flight the Captain and FE have been ganging up on the FO, making fun of him etc. The captain sets up an approach which the FO thinks will end up landing long, on a short runway. The FO voices his concerns several times, only to be shot down by the other two. The Captain of course drives it off the end of the runway, in a classic "Told You So" incident. The difference between this and the Asian idea is that the FO correctly spoke up, but the Captain wouldn't accept critisism.

Saving Face, and unconditional respect for authority/seniority are, unfortunately, known cultural traits in several Asian cultures, and completely at odds with safe flying.

What was going on the original Kai Tak picture we don't know, but I just thought I'd lend support to CPH-R against the uninformed reply to his post.

Regards - Musang


25 Post contains images SUDDEN : That's what I call a good reply!!!
26 A/c train : Apologies To CPH-R,I jumped the gun on him a bit, but it sounds so rediculous!, it's insane even, I would hold someone in high regard for making the d
27 Post contains links and images Duggan : Some more kai tak : Click for large versionPhoto © Samuel lo Click for large versionPhoto © Samuel Lo Click for large versionPhoto © Da
28 PPGMD : CH's asain attitude is correct for a few of the pilots, I have heard that a Japanesse pilot once commited Seppeku (ritualistic honorable sucide) after
29 A/c train : OMG!!! come on guys this is B'' '' '' '' '' it!, ritualistic suicide!!! and you expect someone reading this whos going to fly on JAL or 'some airline
30 Post contains images CPH-R : a/c Train: No problem, we're all allowed to have our own opinions here Admitted, I WAS very concerned whether or not it was correct, as I had a hard t
31 Musang : Its "saving face" again. Two other suicides I can think of after Asian airliner accidents are the Bangladesh Biman 707 which lost all four on take-off
32 A/c train : It sounds like the Pax came first from what you are saying Musang, the errors which you have singled out a 'mismanaged fuel system' and the others ar
33 EGGD : Hey, could this 'saving face' attitude have anything to do with the Saudia L1011 fire where they landed and carried on with usual procedure, before ev
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