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Container Vs Bulk Time Savings  
User currently offlineShamrock137 From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 138 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

I was curious as to how much time would be saved on a quick turn using containers vs bulk loading. I understand aircraft such as the A320 can be ordered with both. In the US all operators have opted for bulk loading, while most operators in Europe and elsewhere use containers. Quick research of schedules shows that EI A320's are blocked for 40 min turns, the same time B6 uses with the EI aircraft holding 174 as opposed to 150. Would this be mostly down to container vs bulk loading? What are the advantages of both?


Time to spare? Go by air!
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3493 times:
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1 contaner can hols upwards of 50-70 bags, you can take a container off the plane in seconds. You cant take 70 bags off in seconds.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24820 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

High European labor cost also drives decision to utilize ULDs versus bulk loading on the A320 family.

One airline I do work with figured a 3-man crew can turn the A320 using containers at its hub, while bulk loading required a team of 5.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16993 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3461 times:

The disadvantages of containers are:
- Weight.
- Cost.

Advantages:
- Speed of loading/unloading.


I leave the question of whether finding an errant bag for offloading is easier with containers or bulk to an expert.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
One airline I do work with figured a 3-man crew can turn the A320 using containers at its hub, while bulk loading required a team of 5.

Does this include the labor to fill and empty the containers?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3424 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
Does this include the labor to fill and empty the containers?

The labor to fill a cart or container is relatively the same, that is done in the bagage makeup area.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

In AMS they have a new system, robot arms fill the containers directly from the baggage belt system. No manual loading of bags.

Just a small team of 2 or 3 persons to load and unload the containers into/from the aircraft.


User currently onlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3375 times:
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The one aspect I have yet to see mentioned here is the comparative cost of the equipment necessary for that "3 man" crew to off/upload the containers, though Starlionblue was probably headed that way. In the U.S., given the nature of the wages paid to ramprats, the case for a "5 man" crew is clear. Though I for one have seen many, many situations where having a quintet on the ramp at your gate was but a dream!


Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

I would wager that the time saved would be minimal. The boarding of passengers/ cleaning / security checks / catering probably take longer overall.
Easyjet is bulk loaded and they do fast turns.

I think the overall manpower reduction is probably the best suggestion i have heard. More relevant for airlines with Big hubs and fleet such as BA,AF,IB,LH,EI,LX etc.
Maybe also the 3rd party handling companies in Europe charge less to turn a containerised 320 than a bulk loaded one?


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2885 times:
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Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7):
would wager that the time saved would be minimal. The boarding of passengers/ cleaning / security checks / catering probably take longer overall.
Easyjet is bulk loaded and they do fast turns.

I think the overall manpower reduction is probably the best suggestion i have heard. More relevant for airlines with Big hubs and fleet such as BA,AF,IB,LH,EI,LX etc.
Maybe also the 3rd party handling companies in Europe charge less to turn a containerised 320 than a bulk loaded one?

Regardless of how you do it you are correct the ramp loading and unloading generally is the quickest portion of the flight turn. That is not to say that there is a great savings in time in offloading a containerized aircraft in comparison to a bulkloaded one. I full 777 can be offloaded in about the same time as a full A320, with likely double even triple the freight and baggage.

That is not to say that the labor savings is great as well, but lets not discount the savings in time as well.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2854 times:

I still tend to think modern technology means less human being doing hardwork, the case in AMS is a prime example where robots can do these repetitive work and potentially save on labour cost and also potential injuries,

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
In AMS they have a new system, robot arms fill the containers directly from the baggage belt system. No manual loading of bags.

I remember reading somewhere that some airlines here in Europe went for A320 rather than B737 series was due to the fact that they have the flexibility for container loading. I cant quote anything but this is in my memories....



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
One airline I do work with figured a 3-man crew can turn the A320 using containers at its hub, while bulk loading required a team of 5.

In the United States! That sounds like a dream come true! I've never seen more than 3, including the lead with most airlines including my own when I worked the ramp some years back. The mantra was "3 to a T". You had 40 minutes to turn a fully loaded 738. Don't let it's size fool you. The longer aft bin can hold up to 180 bags by itself. That's not counting anything up front which bulked out can be up to 120 or 130.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2631 times:

In 1990 SAS opened their new Domestic Terminal 2 at ARN. The ramp systems were supplied by FMT and included many systems built into the ramp, including a baggage belt that went from check in to the aircraft hold. No containers or trollies.
The idea was to operate with very few ramp staff, but two years later SAS pulled out. The cost of keeping the equipment working was higher than the cost of more loaders. Most of the equipment is still there, and you can see the rising red boxes still being used for air conditioning and ground power.
Here is their website
http://www.fmt.se/en/airport/vfgss/
Watch the You tube video and you can see the baggage belts at 6.00.


User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16993 posts, RR: 67
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 9):
I still tend to think modern technology means less human being doing hardwork, the case in AMS is a prime example where robots can do these repetitive work and potentially save on labour cost and also potential injuries,

In Europe there is much incentive for automation as labor costs are so high. In the US they are lower, and in East Asia much lower. Why invest in automation when you can just pay more labor?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
In Europe there is much incentive for automation as labor costs are so high. In the US they are lower, and in East Asia much lower. Why invest in automation when you can just pay more labor?

The reason being i work in the health and safety field, and the hierarchy of control of risk means that we try to eliminate a task, if equipment can do it rather than human. Equipment will not get a bad back when handling bags but human will. Of coz I dont work in aviation but the health and safety game is quite similar across the board - having said that, we only do things 'as far as reasonably practicable' so it is not practicable to automate everything, and human needs to do it.

next time i am back to my hometown (HKG) I will have a look at how much containers they use in, for example, dragonairs A320, or you can tell me  



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16993 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 13):
The reason being i work in the health and safety field, and the hierarchy of control of risk means that we try to eliminate a task, if equipment can do it rather than human. Equipment will not get a bad back when handling bags but human will.

Of course. And in an ideal world corporations would care about people's backs. But remember that in, say, The Philippines, salaries and insurance (if that is even needed) are very low compared to Western Europe. Corporations don't have consciences. Unless there is incentive to "care", they don't. They go for the efficient use of money and maximum wealth generation for their owners.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 13):
next time i am back to my hometown (HKG) I will have a look at how much containers they use in, for example, dragonairs A320, or you can tell me  

HK is a bit of a special case. Salaries are comparatively low but many companies want to seem "cutting edge". Then again I am sure Dragonair follows the money. The Swire Group tends to be quite ruthless about such things.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2453 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
In Europe there is much incentive for automation as labor costs are so high. In the US they are lower, and in East Asia much lower. Why invest in automation when you can just pay more labor?

It's true that labor costs are higher in Europe but they also have a tendancy to be more foward thinking in general as well. In the US our unions battles are to keep the status quo and fight technology at all costs because of the jobs that will be lost as a result, rather than accept technology and push to get the workers trained to do the higher skilled job that the technology will create.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

From reading all of these replies, it would appear that the "containerization" of freight / cargo has worked MUCH better in the shipping industry than it has in the airline industry.

Back in the 80s and 90s, I frequently had to go to major airports to deliver and pick up cars at the car rental companies, and I remember often seeing air freight lots with dozens, even hundreds of containers, just sitting around, apparently not being used; I remember thinking at the time, the things looked like they must be very expensive to build, needing to be very light, and having to "fit" certain a/c like pieces of a big puzzle.

I also remember quite well, back in the late 1950s when I first started having occasion to deliver and pick up stuff at sea ports, that everything that was transported by ships was loaded on the ship, piece by piece, and also that anytime you had to pick up cargo that had arrived by ship, I would always have to "deal" with "longshoremen"; for anyone not familiar with ocean shipping and sea ports, "longshoremen" are guys who belong to the I.L.U., ( International Longshoremen's Union )
It always seemed to me back then that the primary reason for the very existence of the I.L.U. was for the members to be able to give the rest of the world a HARD TIME; (what a bunch of A**H***S !) Now, where have all of the "longshoremen" jobs gone to ? Ha ! The "freight" now gets loaded into a container in East Podunk, then hauled 300 miles to Port Newark or Port Dundalk by some scab who can't speak English, and makes less than minimum wage, so now,about 95% of all of the "now laid off longshoremen" are sitting home twiddling their fingers, wondering why they no longer have a job.

Having been a Teamsters member for 41 years, I always feel very bad for anyone who is out of work, but I must tell you, it's damned hard to feel sorry for longshoremen ! ( I wonder if there are any on A.net ?)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16993 posts, RR: 67
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 16):
for anyone not familiar with ocean shipping and sea ports, "longshoremen" are guys who belong to the I.L.U., ( International Longshoremen's Union )

Well, technically a "longshoreman" is not necessarily a union member but just a person who loads and unloads ships. The term derives from "man along the shore" and if memory serves was used even way back in the time when they would row in boats out to the ships to be loaded/unloaded.

Nowadays the guys who drive the container cranes are longshoremen. These people are not paid peanuts as it is a highly skilled job.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8863 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2230 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):

Advantages:
- Speed of loading/unloading.

Protection from rain, snow etc
Reduction in theft
Reduction in damage
Reduction in lost luggage
Reduced number of people used to turn an aircraft around, and those people can be used more efficiently.
Can provide better fire and explosives protection (GLARE ones).



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
1 contaner can hols upwards of 50-70 bags,

The "statistical" standard for a LD3 is 37-bags

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
- Weight

Standard weight for a LD3 is 82kg.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 19):
The "statistical" standard for a LD3 is 37-bags

Yeah our average is usually 30-40 if they're regular sized bags not sure abou 70...unless we're talking about LD8s.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 19):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
1 contaner can hols upwards of 50-70 bags,

The "statistical" standard for a LD3 is 37-bags

which LD3 are you talking about?

This is a standard LD3 (AKE): (used on widebodies):


Or this LD3 (AKH): (used on the A320 family):



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2042 times:

We are talking about containers for baggage right?

For other cargo on the 737, how do they load those?

Example: We get fish from Alaska every year (Copper River Salmon). They fly 'em in on Alaska Airline 737. So how are those fish shipped? In boxes that are handled like regular luggage? Or can a 737 handle non-standard container for on pallets?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 16):
it would appear that the "containerization" of freight / cargo has worked MUCH better in the shipping industry than it has in the airline industry.

Technically true. However if you want to compare apples and apples, then you would have to say FED-EX, UPS and DHL are using one form of "container" or another. Although a "container" could be just a pallet with all the packages shrink wrapped.

But you may also be right that a cruise ship will use containers to get the passenger luggage on board . . .  

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineintsim From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
Example: We get fish from Alaska every year (Copper River Salmon). They fly 'em in on Alaska Airline 737. So how are those fish shipped? In boxes that are handled like regular luggage? Or can a 737 handle non-standard container for on pallets?

The boxes of fish are just bulk loaded. The fish are shipped in plastic wrap with dry ice. The boxes can weigh a lot.

The perk of bulk loading boxes of fish is the slime that gets on the bin floor from minor leaks.

Jeff


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 927 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting intsim (Reply 23):

Aww yes nothing beats offloading the heavy boxes of fresh fish or meat... I am not a fan of the wonderful stench that is left behind in the cargo bay after all the fish boxes are offloaded



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting intsim (Reply 23):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 24):

Ah, but thanks y'all for the wonderfully fresh fish!!!   

And one good reason to go with a container as opposed to bulk.  crazy 

bt

[Edited 2013-03-05 06:05:01]


Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
Well, technically a "longshoreman" is not necessarily a union member but just a person who loads and unloads ships. The term derives from "man along the shore" and if memory serves was used even way back in the time when they would row in boats out to the ships to be loaded/unloaded.

You're absolutely right about the origin of the term "longshoreman"; But I can tell you this; since I started in trucking in the late 1950's, there have been precious few, (if any) non-union dock workers loading or unloading ships at any or the major east coast seaports; I'm mainly familiar with Port Newark, Port Elizabeth, Dundalk Marine in Baltimore, and the port at Brunswick, Ga.

At all of those places, everyone touching anything, including the people who drive the cars off of the car carrier ships, all belong tom the L.S.I. I don't like to say this too loud, but if you take a close look at many of the union bosses at these places, you'll notice that many of them have a another "line of endeavor" ( which you can read a lot of books about ),
if you catch my drift. Seaports are a very good place to "look straight ahead", don't ask many questions, and above all, don't get into any " physical altercations" with "anyone" ! Overall, it may not be quite as bad any more as it used to be; in the late 50's, all through the 1960's, all the sea ports were a lot like going to a "Good Fellow's" movie.


Nowadays the guys who drive the container cranes are longshoremen. These people are not paid peanuts as it is a highly skilled job.

Ha! You got that right! But just try to get one of those crane operator jobs ! It aint easy, and the dues aren't cheap, either.



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
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