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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....  
User currently offlinetransaeroyyz From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 149 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 25148 times:

Was reading a comment on avherald, that said " the captain was a hero for 2 days until they found that the crew did not do the entire landing gear emergency procedure. There was another section to go but the captain trusted the co pilot did all so they saved many life but there was a stupid mistake.."
I don't remember hearing about this, does anyone know any more details, wouldn't they have double checked everything?

source :http://avherald.com/h?article=4589a77d&opt=0
eighth comment from bottom

[Edited 2013-03-30 19:54:04]

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 24907 times:

Hmmm, your link takes one to an article titled "Incident: Trip AT42 at Ipatinga on Oct 28th 2012, both engines inoperative, blew tyres on otherwise safe landing"

I don't see a relation between this incident and the LOT incident.


User currently offlinetransaeroyyz From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 24712 times:

Their not related it was the source of my question in the eight comment from the bottom up

"By Ofer on Wednesday, Nov 7th 2012 11:27Z"


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 24450 times:

A circuit breaker was found in clear view popped. It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed. After the jacked the aircraft the breaker was closed and the gear extended under the alternate procedures

[Edited 2013-03-30 21:04:54]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 24309 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So what happened to the LOT pilot? An unpleasant conversation and a lot of sim time, or worse?


I've got $h*t to do
User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 24009 times:

I believe he is still flying with Lot.

Interestingly, Polish aviation authority never published the final report with the cause of failed landing gear extension. Some - myself included - believe that it is done on purpose to protect the reputation of Lot, a government - owned entity, having so-called "best pilots" by the government.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23068 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
A circuit breaker was found in clear view popped. It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed. After the jacked the aircraft the breaker was closed and the gear extended under the alternate procedures

That's not actually true, the circuit breaker which was popped was well out of the normal line of sight at floor level, and was not specifically related to the alternate extension system, although it being pulled would stop it working. Also the checklist made no mention of this circuit breaker.

Given it's position, and lack of any warnings if it was pulled unless you needed to operate an associated system, this CB could have been unintentionally pulled for an unknown amount of time.

The investigation is still ongoing, but has already released 4 recommendations;
- append checklists to address missing items mentioned above
- modify the alternate gear extension checklist to check C829 in case of a failed alternate gear extension
- introduce a checklist for the case of failure of both primary and alternate gear extension
- introduce a physical protection of the circuit breakers located in area where contact with shoes, cleaning equipment, hand luggage, etc. may occur.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4456bd6b/0021&opt=0

Not quite so clear cut.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 5):
Interestingly, Polish aviation authority never published the final report with the cause of failed landing gear extension.

The last interim update was only 5 months ago, so the investigators have another 7 months before they are required to make the next public statement. Hopefully the final report will be ready before then, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they will fail to publish given the amount of information they have already made public.

As is usually the case in aviation accidents there is no single failure that lead to this accident, and as far as the crew are concerned, there but for the grace of god...

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlinetransaeroyyz From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 22909 times:

In the preflight check list is there a not a procedure to check the fuse panel?

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5041 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19797 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 7):
In the preflight check list is there a not a procedure to check the fuse panel?

Yes. And they may well have been checked, and closed.

There are a lot of "theories" right now. One is that the F/O's flight bag pulled the breaker out as he was placing his flight bag, after the circuit breakers were checked. (It's normally done before sitting down).

Another theory is that the earlier hydraulic issue, and fluid loss, may have caused the breaker to pop.

Another theory is that the attempt at the Alternate Gear Extension popped the circuit breaker. In this case, and not knowing when the breaker actually popped, it would be risky to reset it. Hind sight is wonderful. We now know that had the breaker been reset, the Alternate Gear Extension would have worked. But .... what if it caused more problems, especially if there was an earlier possible fluid leak? Maybe the breaker was doing what was supposed to!

That is why the investigation is not so cut and dry.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinewindowflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17890 times:

If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers? I know it's not that simple given the added pressure of failing systems but still, they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

[Edited 2013-03-31 09:38:18]


A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ,Dash-8,YS-11,HS-748,Concorde
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12513 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17551 times:

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

Wouldn't they also have been in touch with their own maintenance department as they were troubleshooting and even if the crew had not thought of it, or followed the checklist, the engineering department would have suggested it?

I really don't think it was as simple as some are portraying it.


User currently offlinecornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17250 times:

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers?

You don't reset a breaker in flight unless you have a pretty good idea that it popped for a non-critical reason. And apparently this breaker having an effect on the alternate gear extension system was not well documented, so the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.


User currently offlinehivue From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16321 times:

Quoting cornutt (Reply 11):
the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.

How about LOT's mx people?


User currently onlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1637 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15748 times:

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers?

Did they try both normal and alternate extension systems before making the journey across the ocean? If they had not tried the alternate procedure, they would have had no idea that there was a problem with that system as well.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlinewindowflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14738 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):
Wouldn't they also have been in touch with their own maintenance department as they were troubleshooting and even if the crew had not thought of it, or followed the checklist, the engineering department would have suggested it?

I really don't think it was as simple as some are portraying it.

Agreed. Must have been a whole lot more going on.

Apart from having their own maintenance staff to help them could they not also have asked the experts at Boeing for help? It seems as though they had more than enough time.

Does anyone know what support aircraft manufacturers offer in such cases?
I don't expect them to have an official hotline for airliners in trouble with dedicated staff etc.
But is there some contingency plan for such events?



A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ,Dash-8,YS-11,HS-748,Concorde
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14093 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed.

No, it wasn't. That was one of the points of the investigation so far; that it wasn't mentioned in the checklists, and a re-write of the relevant checklists has been recommended...

Kind of a redundant thread, OP. This information could easily have been found by looking at the reports or even the posts of the incident on avherald, the site you found the comment on.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11489 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 15):
Kind of a redundant thread, OP

yet has generated 15 interesting replies...including your own.


User currently offlinecharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10342 times:

[quote=hivue,reply=12]the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.

How about LOT's mx people?

Resetting a circuit breater in flight is not to be taken lightly, depending on the airlines Flight Manual there are c.b.'s that can be reset and others that require "captain's emergency authority" maintenance cannot really do much in this situation.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7816 times:

Here's footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTPkN_IqM8

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):

If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers? I know it's not that simple given the added pressure of failing systems but still, they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

As I understand it, they didn't know about the problem until they moved the gear handle, so there was no reason to troubleshoot it.

Quoting transaeroyyz (Thread starter):
LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

The press always solves crashes after a few hours, and always lauds pilots as heroes if they bring the plane back safely in a crisis.

No matter the final outcome of the investigation they did bring her down safely. Compare with Air Transat 236, where the crew didn't follow the proper procedure and thus exacerbated the problem, but did manage to glide to safety once they ran out of fuel.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7706 times:

Quoting cornutt (Reply 11):
You don't reset a breaker in flight unless you have a pretty good idea that it popped for a non-critical reason.

Boeing doesn't recommend it but says in flight at the Captain's discretion a tripped circuit breaker may be reset once.

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 14):
Does anyone know what support aircraft manufacturers offer in such cases?
I don't expect them to have an official hotline for airliners in trouble with dedicated staff etc.
But is there some contingency plan for such events?

Boeing has people the airline can contact and they have the numbers of two pilots for each model that they can attempt to contact -- not standing by though. I'm not sure pilots have ever been contacted except for a military airplane that had a gear issue way back when -- plenty of fuel and time to troubleshoot.


One of the jeewiz things with the 787 is the CB's are all electronic. You can check which ones are out, reset it or pull it all through maintenance pages that can be displayed.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7655 times:

As I understand it, the aircraft was written off as a result of this incident/accident...and it was the newest 767 in LOT's fleet.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineApprentice From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7554 times:

I don't recall if in preliminary repport, ETOPS issue, starting an ETOPS flight w/o center hyd system, was a concern. Any inputs?


A "NO" is a positive answer. My Tutor
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7544 times:

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 6):
Given it's position, and lack of any warnings if it was pulled unless you needed to operate an associated system,

I'm always a little cautious when some says an open circuit breaker, especially a distribution buss circuit breaker, will not have a flight deck effect.

So, as an exercise in curiosity and practice, I chased down this particular CB. While it does provide supply to the alternate extend system, it also supplies several other systems. Now, I'll agree that there would be no specific FDE related to the CB, I wonder if at any time the "MAIN BAT CHGR" status message popped up at all. Near as I can tell, in steady state flight, this would be the only indication of a popped "BAT. BUS DISTR CB".

Things would be a little different during the landing phase, because as soon as an autoland were attempted, the "NO LAND 3" annunciation would appear due to the inability of the aircraft to go into buss isolation for autoland.

There would be all kinds of stored faults in the Bus Power Control Unit because this circuit breaker supplies the Back-Up 28VDC to the 3 generator control units.

It'll be interesting to keep an eye on this one.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineApprentice From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7456 times:

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 21):

Correction: Starting an ETOPS sector.



A "NO" is a positive answer. My Tutor
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
One is that the F/O's flight bag pulled the breaker out as he was placing his flight bag, after the circuit breakers were checked

Wouldn't that accompany an error message.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7375 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wouldn't that accompany an error message.

That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7273 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground.

I'm guessing the most you'll get is a status message which doesn't require any crew action. But, more than likely it will only be a maintenance message which depending on the airline is not available to the crew inflight.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 26):
I'm guessing the most you'll get is a status message which doesn't require any crew action. But, more than likely it will only be a maintenance message which depending on the airline is not available to the crew inflight.

My thoughts are the same after reviewing the print. Kind of surprising though...this is a DC distribution buss that affects quite a few systems.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5041 posts, RR: 43
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7200 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wouldn't that accompany an error message.

Apparenretly not, as they were not aware the circuit breaker was open.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
My thoughts are the same after reviewing the print. Kind of surprising though...this is a DC distribution buss that affects quite a few systems.

I sat in the airplane yesterday. Saw the circuit breaker ..... just couldn't bring myself to pull it   One never knows what the heck could happen, then, how do you explain your actions!

Looking at the CB list, it does power a lot of systems. But I have to guess that nothing would show on the EICAS, or the pilots would be aware.

On another tack, does anyone know if it was legal to continue on an ETOPS flight with the initial hydraulic fault under Polish Air Regs? It sure wouldn't be legal where I fly!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineDufo From Slovenia, joined May 1999, 801 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6957 times:

I cannot imagine any of my crew not checking all the relevant switches and breakers for any of the possibly affected systems. Even if not in the procedure/checklist, it can be checked. To be 'reset' when this is not required, that's another story.


I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 30, posted (10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground
Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
Apparenretly not, as they were not aware the circuit breaker was open.

Im quite surprised that a tripped CB does not give a related message.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Im quite surprised that a tripped CB does not give a related message.


Tripped CB's do not give a message on any Boeing airplane. On the 787 since the CB's are electronic a page can be brought up on the displays showing CB status.


User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 31):
Tripped CB's do not give a message on any Boeing airplane.

Perplexing. What's the logic behind this design approach?



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5041 posts, RR: 43
Reply 33, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Quoting Western727 (Reply 32):
Perplexing. What's the logic behind this design approach?

Basically, its the way Boeing has always done it. The first aircraft I had ever flown with monitored circuit breakers was the A310. The comparable aircraft at the time was the B767, so it would have to be any cockpit designed after that .... say the B777, and Boeing chose not to.

Understand though, that while the actual circuit breaker opeining will not appear on the EICAS, the effect will. Namely, if that popped circuit breaker caused the loss of a system, that system loss will appear. So in an Airbus, you will receive two warnings ... the system loss, then 60 seconds later, the circuit breaker.

Also, not all circuit breakers are monitored in an Airbus, only the green coloured ones ... about half.

In this example of the LOT B767, it is a strange one. Firstly as that particular circuit breaker powered many systems, it was not labled "Alternate Gear Extension". Further, its opening did not generate any EICAS message indicating a system loss.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
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