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Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On  
User currently offlineMANfan From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2010, 61 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

It is universal I believe that any airline that operated both the 757 and 767 can utilise a common type rating, and pilots fly both aircraft types.

Does anybody know if something similar occurs between other Boeing aircraft types ?

For example do Lufthansa 747 pilots fly both the 747-400 and the 747-8 once they have completed a "differences" course, or are these to types flown as separate fleets ?

Likewise are United planning to have a common 777 and 787 fleet of pilots once they have taken delivery of sufficient 787 hulls to make it practical.

Also do Delta and United fly the 767-400 as a common fleet with either or both the 767-200/300 fleets and/or their 777 fleets ?
I've heard it said the 767-400 has a 777 style flight deck, but wondered if it meant its pilots were cross qualified.

I appreciate the 737 family are all common type rated

Many thanks for any info anyone can shed on this

MANfan

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineonebadlt123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

I know 737 classic and NG crews are interchangeable and can be typed in both.

I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

Our 777 crews are their own group and my understanding is that are our 787 crews will be their own as well.

[Edited 2013-04-11 10:12:08]

User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6474 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5424 times:

Quoting Reply 1):
I know 737 classic and NG crews are interchangeable and can be typed in both.

I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

From my understanding, our 787 crews will be their own typed group.

As for the 764ER, they are a separate pilot group from the 752/753/763 group with DL, while at UA they are a single pilot group.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

The ones that come to mind

777/787
757/767



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineMANfan From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2010, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

That answers the 764 question, thanks.

I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8

Are Cathay Pacific Cargo planning to dual rate there new 747-8F's with their 744F fleet I wonder ?


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3050 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
I've heard it said the 767-400 has a 777 style flight deck, but wondered if it meant its pilots were cross qualified.

They really don't. That's a common misconception. They look sort of similar, but the 777 has much more functionality. A 767-400 shares a common type rating with the 767-200/-300 and 757.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5138 times:

Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8

I believe wilco737 said - some months back - at his airline - it is a common type rating after a brief difference training.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17017 posts, RR: 67
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Quoting Reply 1):
I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

The 757 and 767 also have the same cockpit height over the ground. The planes were developed concurrently. The 777 is much higher off the ground and was developed more than a decade later.

Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
Are Cathay Pacific Cargo planning to dual rate there new 747-8F's with their 744F fleet I wonder ?

I'd put good money they have (the -8 is already in service). They already had 3 different types of cargo 747 (747-400ERF, 747-400BCF, 747F-400). What's one more?  
Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
I appreciate the 737 family are all common type rated

Yes but there are gotchas here I think. For example I think WN 737NG planes has their EFIS configured to look like the classic.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8991 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5021 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
For example do Lufthansa 747 pilots fly both the 747-400 and the 747-8 once they have completed a "differences" course, or are these to types flown as separate fleets ?
Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8
Quoting WestWing (Reply 6):
I believe wilco737 said - some months back - at his airline - it is a common type rating after a brief difference training

Hi guys,

yes, I am currently flying both: 747-400 and 747-8i. I did the 744 course back then when we didn't have the 748 yet. So I flew the 744 for quite some time, then the mighty 748 joined the fleet and I got a so called 'difference course' for the 748. It is self study at home (computer based training, manuals etc) and then several simulator sessions and then an actual flight with a training captain (TRI/ TRE) and once all that is done I am certified for 744 and 748. So it is one rating.

And I love flying them both   

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMANfan From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2010, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5005 times:

Thanks for the clarification wilco737.

It will be interesting to see if BA eventually dual rate everyone on the 777/787 once the fleet numbers increase for the 787. Initially it will only be the trainers. It's a shame we won't have an opportunity to do the same with the 744/747-8, but except for the freighters (flown separately by GSS) BA seem to have firmly decided against ordering the -8.

There is about the same difference in cockpit height (on the ground) between a 757 & 767, as there is between a 767 & 777. You even had to remember you had to step down into the 757 flightdeck from the front galley, but step up into the 767 flightdeck !!

MANfan


User currently offlineCaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting MANfan (Reply 9):
It will be interesting to see if BA eventually dual rate everyone on the 777/787 once the fleet numbers increase for the 787.

I personally know one of their TRE's on the triple, he is certainly dual certed - a good job really with the delays in delivery.

The conversion course from the triple to the dreamliner is very straightforward; I can't see why crews won't be dual certed - although I suspect with BA in particular it will be rare to have crew that fly both types.


User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

The 777 and 787 are not common type ratings here is the US. Separate ratings on the certificate. If you are already 777 qualified you can do an FAA approved short course to obtain the 787 rating.

EASA does combine the ratings into one much like the 757/767.

I believe Canada issues separate ratings for the 737-200 Classic, 300 400, 500, 600 series and NG being a stand alone rating for the 700, 800 & 900

[Edited 2013-04-12 07:59:17]

User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2112 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4909 times:

Sadly the MD11 and the MD10 (now supported by Boeing) have a common type-rating , despite the large aerodynamic handling differences(especially during landing) between these two aircraft types.

[Edited 2013-04-12 09:24:06]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

I have flown the DC10-10/-30 as well as the MD11, but never the MD10. The FedEx pilots that I have talked to have said that the differences are minimal and well within the bounds of a single type rating.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4570 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
They already had 3 different types of cargo 747 (747-400ERF, 747-400BCF, 747F-400). What's one more?

Look at the number of engine differances in the fleets, it is more than it appears, many differnt limits and engine start procedures.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 11):
The 777 and 787 are not common type ratings here is the US. Separate ratings on the certificate. If you are already 777 qualified you can do an FAA approved short course to obtain the 787 rating.

Have a look at this

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2011/InFO11016.pdf



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9320 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4448 times:

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):

Delta's pilot bases work this way.

73N-737-700/800/900ER
7ER-757-200/300 767-300/300ER
765-767-400ER(no idea why its 765 not 764
M89-M88/M90
DC9-now just the 50s but it was 30/40/50s
717-717-200
330-330-200/300
320 -319/320
777-777-200ER/LR
744-747-400

Also for possible new aircraft.
E90/95 would have it own cat.
787 should be on its own and the 777-300ER will be part of the 777 cat.

the bases are as fallows.

ATL:
777
330
765
7ER
73N
320
717
DC9
M89

DTW:
744
777
330
7ER
73N
320

MSP
7ER
320
M89

NYC:
765
7ER
320
M89
73N
(maybe a 330...can't remember)

SLC
7ER
73N
320

CVG
73N
M89

LAX
7ER
73N

SEA
330
7ER



yep.
User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Not sure what your point is regarding the FAA link? They are not common types as the 757/767.

Also a small but anal point is that Boeing does not recognize the term"Button" on either the 777 or 787. They are switches. Go figure!


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):

This is the point, in black and white from the FAA.

"The B-787 Flight Standardization Board (FSB) has evaluated and validated the differences training and checking proposed by The Boeing Company and has determined that the B-777 and B-787 aircraft qualify for a common pilot type rating (IAW AC 120- 53A)."

As for buttons, who cares what they are called, it is the function that I am concerned with.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
"The B-787 Flight Standardization Board (FSB) has evaluated and validated the differences training and checking proposed by The Boeing Company and has determined that the B-777 and B-787 aircraft qualify for a common pilot type rating (IAW AC 120- 53A)."

I'm wondering, though, how many airlines are actually rotating 787 crews back to the triple 7. From what I can tell, it looks like no one is  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4220 times:

Zeke,

I can't make it any clearer to you apparently. The 787 is a seperate type rating. If you hold a FAA issued B777 type rating then you can take an FAA approved "compressed" type rating course at your airline or Boeing and obtain a 787 type rating. In turn if you don't have the 777 type you can take the 787 long course and get the 787 stand alone rating. Boeing has only recently developed the course for going from the 787 to the 777.

FYI. I have a 787 rating and unlike the 757/767 rating it is a stand alone rating much to Boeing's chagrin.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 19):

You are venting towards the wrong party, I quoted the FAA in black and white, they are not my words. Take it up with them.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

I usually spend at least four hours a day with them, I don't need furrther clarification. No problem and I don't mean to come off as hostile towards you.

Good day Sir.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3050 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):
Also a small but anal point is that Boeing does not recognize the term"Button" on either the 777 or 787. They are switches. Go figure!

That's true for all Boeing airplanes. It's so we can have standardized and simplified definitions for things, especially for ESL pilots. I'm always getting on my co-workers for this. Buttons are on your shirt. Switches, Selectors and Keys are on flight decks.

You push a switch. Press is what the dry cleaner does to the buttons on your shirt; depress means to take away its Prozac.


User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

So on FAA certificates, there is a 787 type rating? I remember a big deal being made that the FAA approved a common type rating for the 777 and 787. What is the distinction? Is this not true? When a UAL 787 pilot passes his check ride, does his license now say B787 or B777 or both (like the 757 767)? I don't fly Boeings so I'd appreciate the detailed answer.

User currently offlineBravoOne From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

It says 777 (If he previosly obtained the 777 rating) and then it says 787. They are not combined as a 777/787, or 707/720 or DC6/7 rating here in the US.

B-737; B-727; B707/720; B-757; B-767; B-777: B787: DC-10; L1011; G-V; LR-JET

Note that the 757/767 are shown as stand alone ratings rather shown as individual types. IF you have the 777 rating you can do a "compressed transition" to the 787. If you don't have the 777 rating you will need to do the "long course" and it will not give you a 777 rating at the same time like the 757/767 is capable of doing. You would need to do a "Reverse differences" course on the 777 to add that rating. The airplane really have little in common other than being made by Boeing. Well maybe that should be assembeled by Boeing.

When saying a Reverse differences course that means both an FAA oral and a checkride with an FAA 8410 produced from it. Boeing originally did a five day differences course going from the 777 to the 787. This was aproof of concept course to show the FAA that it could be done. I doubt that anyone having done this course felt prepared to actually fly anything beyond the simulator. Most of the airlines are using a ten to sixteen day transition course with FFS and FTD combinations for preveiously qualified 777 crews. I would imagine the day will come that an airline pilot flying for a carrier like UAL that operates both aircraft will attend a combined training program for both the 777 and 787 (assuming that they are a single category at that airline) and thus will come out of it with both types, but it's not there now.

Boeing has struggled with this commonality issue for sometime on all of the fleets. If you have previous Boeing glass time you get some credits for new training. If you have Boeing NG time, then once more you get credits for new Boeing training. It's a complicated picture and what may work here in the US is not always applicable to other regulatory bodies.


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