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Flight Schedule - How Can It Be On Time?  
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Look at the airlines timetable and flight schedules. There is something missing about it. I do not understand "when" and "where" the actual time can be.

Departure:
The airlines timetable shows the plane's departure time is 9:00am from ABC to XYZ. Does it mean that the plane has to be take off at 9:00am or the gate must be closed at 9:00am sharp?

Arrival:
The plane arrives at 10am. Does it mean that the plane touched down at 10am on the runway or the plane stopped at the gate at 10am?

Add one more:-
Why does the airlines want the pax to be on the plane 30 mins earlier before departure time if the traffic isn't busy??? It's a bit too early.

Thanks

[Edited 2013-04-27 17:40:53]


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

Quoting FlyboyOz (Thread starter):
Departure:
The airlines timetable shows the plane's departure time is 9:00am from ABC to XYZ

Push back from the gate.

Quoting FlyboyOz (Thread starter):
Arrival:
The plane arrives at 10am

Gate arrival generally, but it is considered as arrived on time even if has to wait hours for the gate.

Okie


User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16992 posts, RR: 67
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

There is more than one time figured. The acronym for the four times is OOOI, meaning Gate Out, Wheels Off, Wheels On, and Gate In. This is needed since taxi times are different at different airports.

As far as I know, published schedules are based on Gate Out and Gate In times as Wheels Off and Wheels On are only really relevant for flight crews, maintenance and dispatchers.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3835 times:

Thanks mate

One more question: -
Why does the airlines want the pax to be on the plane 30 mins earlier before departure time if the traffic isn't busy??? It's a bit too early.



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16992 posts, RR: 67
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 3):
One more question: -
Why does the airlines want the pax to be on the plane 30 mins earlier before departure time if the traffic isn't busy??? It's a bit too early.

Murphy's Law. In most cases nothing goes wrong, but you have to plan for screwups. If nothing else, there will inevitably be pax who cut it fine and come along at the last minute. Better to tell everyone to get there early and have them wait a bit on the plane than to risk a delay due to missing the slot.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineflyasaguy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3806 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 1):
Gate arrival generally, but it is considered as arrived on time even if has to wait hours for the gate.

Unless i'm reading what you're saying wrong this would be incorrect. A flight being "on-time" is measured by their arrival time. The arrival time isn't time stamped until the plane is in the gate. So for example if you leave LAX right on schedule and take -off not too long after. Land at JFK about 10 minutes before your arrival time but sit around for a gate for 40 minutes the flight is late.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 1):
Gate arrival generally, but it is considered as arrived on time even if has to wait hours for the gate.

Not correct. It is when the aircraft is at the gate, but it is also when the door is opened. The "event" is triggered by ACARS and the door open is one of the final requirements. If you sit at the gate waiting for an hour, that is not an "arrival" time. The meter is still running and the crew is still getting paid.

The airlines use the OOOI (out/off on/in) for times. As has been pointed out, the off and on times are used for maintenance to record the airframe time. The out/in time are used for the computation of the scheduled departure and arrival times.



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7575 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting FlyboyOz (Thread starter):
Add one more:-
Why does the airlines want the pax to be on the plane 30 mins earlier before departure time if the traffic isn't busy??? It's a bit too early.

Heck, when I started flying, you had to check in at the gate an hour before boarding time, or you could lose your seat.

The best/ fastest time I've ever seen was a start boarding to door closed and push back start for an AA B738 that took exactly 11 minutes. A full airplane. (We were already seven hours delayed by weather in the incoming flight arriving. The pilot told us before boarding that he guessed he had maybe 20 minutes to get the plane loaded, and taxi out to the active runway - otherwise the flight would be delayed at least three more hours with another line of thunderstorms coming in. As it turned out our BDL-DFW flight had to fly over Toronto, MSP and DEN to avoid weather that day to get to DFW.)

In reality, the average time it takes to board an airplane and get everyone in their seats is closer to 20-25 minutes for a narrowbody.

Getting everyone settled and all their junk stowed properly, making sure all the paperwork is right, making sure everything is right takes time. 30 minutes allows for the little things that happen too often, and still getting the plane out on time.


User currently offlinewoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1020 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

The triggering events are the release and setting of the parking brake.

For departure once the main cabin door is closed the parking brake must be released for ACARS to generate the OUT time. Once it's generated then the plane can sit there until eternity it is still considered departed.

On arrival the time the parking brake is set is the IN time. The plane taxis in and the brake is set. The IN time is recorded but ACARS does not transmit that IN time until a cabin door is opened.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
The best/ fastest time I've ever seen was a start boarding to door closed and push back start for an AA B738 that took exactly 11 minutes. A full airplane.

When everything is setup and everyone is on the same page turnarounds can happen quickly.

The fastest I've seen from block in to block out is 1 minute.

The plane landed and blocked in one pax got off. Paperwork got handed to the CA who handed it right back out to the gate agent. The FO walked around the aircraft while one pax boarded. While the ramper took off the deplaning pax's bag and loaded the bags for the pax who got on. The FO got back in closed the door and the plane blocked out.

Faster than a NASCAR pitstop.



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting woodreau (Reply 8):
For departure once the main cabin door is closed the parking brake must be released for ACARS to generate the OUT time.

There are some newer aircraft that require a taxy speed from the IRU as well before setting an Out time. There were too many pilots releasing the brakes for an outf time!!!!


User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting woodreau (Reply 8):
On arrival the time the parking brake is set is the IN time. The plane taxis in and the brake is set. The IN time is recorded but ACARS does not transmit that IN time until a cabin door is opened.

Not quite correct. Each airline can set up their own parameters to trigger an event. All the airlines I have worked for had the brakes and door open as the event for a IN event.



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1844 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting mmo (Reply 6):
Not correct. It is when the aircraft is at the gate, but it is also when the door is opened. The "event" is triggered by ACARS and the door open is one of the final requirements. If you sit at the gate waiting for an hour, that is not an "arrival" time. The meter is still running and the crew is still getting paid.

There are still plenty of airlines out there that don't have ACARS equipped aircraft, and even if they do, ACARS is not always used for onblock/offblock times. Those airlines will have to rely on times send by the airport or handling agent which can be easily manipulated.

Martijn



Fly DC-Jets!
User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 11):
Those airlines will have to rely on times send by the airport or handling agent which can be easily manipulated.

First of all, I never wrote ALL airlines have ACARS. If I did, please point it out and I will change it.

Secondly, If the regulatory bodies ever get wind of manipulation of OOOI times, I do not want to be there. The simple fact is falsifying records is a very serious issue.



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
User currently offlineflyasaguy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Just for those that don't work for an airline understand..."OUT" and "IN" events are triggered in different ways even within the same company. Some airlines require all doors (including cargo doors) to be closed for an out event to trigger even if you pop the breaks. Some only require the boarding door to be closed and the beacon engaged.

Not all Delta a/c give a time-stamp for the bin doors closing while some do (all the 319s/320s has this ability). We have some 757s that can trigger an out event via ACARS (releasing the breaks) with passengers still boarding and some where it must be clean (cargo/cabin doors closed). It just depends.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

The Timings on the Airlines Schedule is the Chocks On & Chocks off time.......Not the Takeoff or Touchdown time, which is also recorded but for other purposes like TIA [Time in Air].


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting flyasaguy2005 (Reply 5):
Unless i'm reading what you're saying wrong this would be incorrect. A flight being "on-time" is measured by their arrival time. The arrival time isn't time stamped until the plane is in the gate

Maybe for the airlines but for a passenger the board says arrived while it is sitting in line waiting for a gate so you can board it for your connection.

Okie


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