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Pilots; SOP When LOC OTS?  
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 days ago) and read 3637 times:

Just want to confirm I'm not crazy; as far as I know...when the LOC is OTS, the whole ILS is considered OTS. (Also no LOC, no ident signal...flag doesn't get pulled back)

For the flight crews out here; when the LOC is OTS, What does Airline SOP tell you to do?

Thanks


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Correct.

Only other options would be a VOR, or NDB, or RNAV/GNSS approach assuming one would be available and the weather minimums were sufficient.

If you had the minimums, you could also do a visual, if allowed under company SOP.



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Just checking; got into an argument last night. I was told the GS was needed for vertical guidance, when the LOC was OTS.


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2830 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting mmedford (Thread starter):
when the LOC is OTS, the whole ILS is considered OTS



The GS by itself is not useful as there is no lateral guidance available if that's what you're getting at.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 2):
I was told the GS was needed for vertical guidance, when the LOC was OTS.

Stick to your guns on this one. What is your friend alleging you use for lateral guidance if the LOC is OTS?

Bottom line: you need another approach of some sort.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting mmedford (Thread starter):
Just want to confirm I'm not crazy; as far as I know...when the LOC is OTS, the whole ILS is considered OTS.

Correct.

Quoting mmedford (Thread starter):
For the flight crews out here; when the LOC is OTS, What does Airline SOP tell you to do?

Find another approach to fly.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
The GS by itself is not useful as there is no lateral guidance available if that's what you're getting at

Well, theoretically it could be of some use if you were in VMC and could align yourself with the runway visually and then use the GS as advisory glidepath information. But even if the conditions were right for that, I'd be very wary about using it since who knows what errors might be present in the system.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Well, theoretically it could be of some use if you were in VMC and could align yourself with the runway visually and then use the GS as advisory glidepath information. But even if the conditions were right for that, I'd be very wary about using it since who knows what errors might be present in the system.

Very true. Most airline SOPs include some sort of statement that visual approaches are to be backed up using electronic glideslope information when available, but I'd certainly be weary of its reliability if the localizer is out of service. Definitely backing that up with the PAPI, VASI, or if neither is available perhaps display VNAV guidance programmed into the FMS.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):

My vague memory has in the back of it that some aips state at night, when aligned with the runway visually you may descend below the msa if you have an electronic glide slope.

Also from memory, some types of aircraft allows one to intercept a glide slope without a valid loc signal or valid loc capture.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2830 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 6):
Also from memory, some types of aircraft allows one to intercept a glide slope without a valid loc signal or valid loc capture.

Yes, there are aircraft that allow you to capture the GS without first capturing the LOC, though the automation doesn't evaluate the legality of doing so.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting mmedford (Thread starter):
Just want to confirm I'm not crazy; as far as I know...when the LOC is OTS, the whole ILS is considered OTS.



Just ask your pal why they NOTAM the ILS OTS when the localizer is OTS? In over 35 years of seeing ILS outage having a NOTAM applied to them I never saw one that was worded "LOC OTS, GS usable"!!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 773 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):



The GS by itself is not useful as there is no lateral guidance available if that's what you're getting at.

Yup, you don't change your situation vertically, until you can verify your situation horizontally. Just like flying through the mountains, you don't descend off an airway unless you can assure terrain separation. Same principle here. You don't use suspect guidance to get closer to the ground without knowing where you are over that ground!


User currently offlinefxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 707 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

From our side, an LOC out negates the ILS. I've never seen an instrument plate for a GS ONLY approach... If the LOC, and thus ILS is OTS, we try to find another instrument approach we can do with the wx. If, as occasionally happens, there are no available instrument approaches, we have a procedure for dispatch with just a visual approach available.

The crews are able to accept visual approaches but are told to back it up with an instrument approach when available. Due to the nature of our operation, we often operate in the middle of the night when towers are closed or maintenance is being performed on airport systems. It's amusing to being in a Heavy shooting a visual and doing callouts on CTAF... like back in the Cessna 152 days as a student.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
In over 35 years of seeing ILS outage having a NOTAM applied to them I never saw one that was worded "LOC OTS, GS usable"!!

I see "LLZ OTS" all the time - they don't say that the GS is usable, but they don't say it isn't, either (if they wanted to, they'd say "LLZ/GP OTS", which I do see as well from time to time).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
see "LLZ OTS" all the time - they don't say that the GS is usable, but they don't say it isn't, either (if they wanted to, they'd say "LLZ/GP OTS", which I do see as well from time to time).



Are you sure a GP is even associated with the procedure? Could be a BC or a LOC approach ya know.  



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
Are you sure a GP is even associated with the procedure? Could be a BC or a LOC approach ya know.

I don't think it is, but the next time I see one I'll check.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

I think back-course approaches are a thing of the past and slowly fading away, if I am not mistaken the supplier for the V-ring antennas required for a BC LOC is no longer in existence.


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 14):
I think back-course approaches are a thing of the past and slowly fading away, if I am not mistaken the supplier for the V-ring antennas required for a BC LOC is no longer in existence.

That's a great thing!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
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