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US Pilot Flight In UK Questions  
User currently offlineTatTVC From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 89 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

Hello all!

I had a question for those of you who have more expertise in this area than I, and could lend some insight and advice. I'm an american student with my PPL, currently studying (non-aviation related subjects) in the UK, and unable to bear the thought of waiting to get back to the states in July in order to get back in the air. I've decided to sacrifice some hard-earned savings on a flight here in the UK, despite the cheapest hour of flight time I can get here being more than triple what I'd pay in the US for a similar aircraft. Needless to say, an example of why AOPA and EAA need support in defending our right to fly!

The preaching being over, I had some practical questions. Having my PPL for ASEL, I see no obstacle for me to log an hour of time in a PA28 here in the UK. It's ASEL, under 200hp, and fixed gear/fixed pitch prop. It will of course be dual and the flight school is well aware that I'm not a pilot who's previously flown in the UK, so regarding UK specific regulations and rules, I am expecting that the instructor will be familiar and responsible for making sure that we follow all applicable whatever-they-call-their-FAR's here in England.

I've tried googling the differences without success, and therefore had some basic questions I was hoping some of the UK-based pilots could shed some light on:

1. If I am receiving dual, am I PIC, or the instructor, or both, or does the handing of PIC differ from the UK to the US?
2. Major differences in UK vs. US flying, in terms of ASEL aircraft, re rules, requirements, regulations?

The main purpose of the flight (besides not being able to keep my feet on the ground for too long at a time) is to do general sightseeing over the Oxford area, and whatever other scenic landmarks would be easy enough to do in an hour's flight. I will of course raise all of these questions with the flight school and the instructor, but I thought it might be helpful to see what general advice or answers those of you on here with experience in this area could give.

As an aside, if anyone is a private pilot based out of Oxford, and would like free manual labor, I'd be more than happy to trade passenger-right-seat-time in exchange for plane washing, pushing in and out of hangers, or whatever other aviation-related help I could give. Without an official student visa (I'm in the UK less than six months) I can't work, so it would all be strictly volunteer and free (the best kind of labor!).

Of course, if there are any big points or concerns I've overlooked, please feel free to point such oversights out!

Thanks,

-Tim (TatTVC)


"Your time is limited- don't waste it living someone else's life" -Steve Jobs
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting TatTVC (Thread starter):
1. If I am receiving dual, am I PIC, or the instructor, or both, or does the handing of PIC differ from the UK to the US?

The instructor I would assume.

Quoting TatTVC (Thread starter):
2. Major differences in UK vs. US flying, in terms of ASEL aircraft, re rules, requirements, regulations?

Have you ever heard of QNH and QFE?

In the US QNH is usually referred to as 'current altimeter setting'. We also use regional pressure settings which is the lowest pressure setting across a set area (called an Altimeter Setting Region) and is usually used in Class G (uncontrolled) airspace when you are transitting multiple stations. It's basically to prevent you needing to change the altimeter setting continuously due to the fairly crowded low level airspace. All pressures will be given in Hectopascals (hPa), the standard is 1013. Again, sorry if this sounds patronisingly obvious, I'm just not sure what you've been used to.

The transition altitude is usually at 3000ft. ATC will advise. We also use the 'Quadrantal' rule for IFR separation as apposed to the Semi-Circular rule, but I'm not sure if you'll need to worry about that flying on a PPL.

There's probably quite a few RT differences but it shouldn't be too difficult, I'm, sure your instructor will explain them all.

There will also be landing fees, but I'm sure you are well aware of that and one landing is probably included in the cost of hiring the aircraft.

I'm sure you'll get used to it fairly quickly, most people seem to. Have fun.  

[Edited 2013-05-03 04:58:53]

User currently offlinewoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1053 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4464 times:

Not specific to your UK flights, but you can only be PIC of an N-registered aircraft. So if you are flying in a G-registered aircraft, you can't be PIC unless you have an UK-equivalent pilot license. The FAA grants foreign pilots in the US FAA certificates based on foreign certification, so there might be something like that over in the UK if logging PIC time is important to you.

There are some N-registered aircraft in the UK, so maybe you might luck out without having to go through the paperwork dance.


One reference you might want to review is the UK AIP It has information similar to the AIM that you're used to in the US. Although a lot of it is directed towards IFR flight and IFR procedures.

www.ais.org.uk

I took a look there and it seems like Part 2 and Part 3 have a lot of information for you to peruse.

Part 2 - ENR 1.2 General Rules / VFR flight rules ENR 1.7 Altimeter setting regions
ENR 6 - Enroute Charts available for download

Part 3 - AD2 EGTK Oxford/Kidlington airport charts / airport diagrams and approach plates (if you don't have access to Jepp charts)
AD2.22 EGTK flight procedures

I didn't seem to find anything for EGVN Brize Norton though, but I was just skimming and may have just missed it.

Anyways, have fun in the UK.



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 1):
Have you ever heard of QNH and QFE?

Private pilots need more accurate advise than this...

QNH = local altimeter setting. QFE = an adjustment so that the altimeter reads "0 msl" at runway elevation used during IFR approaches and not used much at all anymore...with some exceptions.

Perhaps you meant QNE? QNE is very different but very simple...Standard Pressure. 29.92 or 1013.5.

QNH- "H" for "here". QNE- "E" for "everywhere". QFE- F for "F'd up if you're not careful". That's how I remember it.

[Edited 2013-05-03 15:10:19]

User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
Private pilots need more accurate advise than this...

As opposed to which other type of pilot which may require 'less accurate' advice?

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):


QNH = local altimeter setting. QFE = an adjustment so that the altimeter reads "0 msl" at runway elevation used during IFR approaches and not used much at all anymore...with some exceptions.

Perhaps you meant QNE? QNE is very different but very simple...Standard Pressure. 29.92 or 1013.5.

No, I knew what I meant. Please tell me, at what point in my last post did I say anything incorrect or misleading about QNH or QFE that could have lead you to believe that I was talking about QNE?

I am well aware of the distinction between the two. QNH is used extensively in the UK when airborne. QNE is very, very rarely used, if at all. QFE is also the standard for use at military airports across the country and is also extensively used for airfields at high elevation in conjunction with QNH.

I wasn't giving advice, I didn't even explain what the two were, I merely asked whether the opening poster was familiar with the terms.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make, what pressure setting would you rather I have highlighted? Because QNE is as good as useless when flying low level VFR on 99% of days in the UK, where as QNH will be used on virtually every single flight.

Also, next time you come across an altimeter that can be set, accurately, to 1013.25 hPa in a local flying clubs PA28, let me know...



Edit: Also, if you wish to be pedantic. QNH means 'barometric pressure adjusted to sea level' not local altimeter setting...[Edited 2013-05-03 15:38:07]




[Edited 2013-05-03 15:41:55]

[Edited 2013-05-03 15:59:52]

User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Right-oh their Chief. Sorry for the QNH/QNE/QFE/SNAFU. Right you are.

Just would have been more helpful to the OP if you had explained the difference between QNE and QNH as that's what he will have to know....as a PPL.

Perhaps you can answer a question. ATC and all the rest in the UK is "spot on" but why no standard Transision Altitude? 3000' here...6000' there...other times it's in between. What's the logic? It's certainly not the terrain. As a Yank' who often flies US-UK in a biz-jet I have always wondered this.

[Edited 2013-05-03 16:33:00]

User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 5):
Transision Altitude? 3000' here...6000' there...other times it's in between.

There is chatter amongst EuroControl to create a harmonised, Europe wide standard transition altitude.

At the moment the flight levels available, through the transition altitude, are adjusted for daily pressure and temperature (mainly intended for extremes of pressure and temperatures lower than ISA) and takes MSA and the mountain wave effect into account to ensure that your true altitude is sufficient. Although, I'm sure that you are aware of that.

I think the reason that its conducted in that way is to make best use of the airspace for IFR flying (hence the use of the Quadrantal rule) by allowing as low a transition altitude as possible across the country, whilst taking into account terrain. Probably for the best, we aren't blessed with VMC conditions quite so much over here.

Although, probably best not to quote me on that one, I'm not a controller, I just do as I'm told.  

Apologies for the somewhat sarky previous response, it appears I interpreted your tone incorrectly.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...pe=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=2086

[Edited 2013-05-03 16:55:07]

[Edited 2013-05-03 16:59:44]

User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

But in N. America (Mexico, Canada, US, Caribbean) we manage with a Transition Altitude at 18,000' and we have, on occasion, more extreme weather than the UK ever sees. Fairbanks, Alaska for example..or Mesa, Arizona. How is it we can manage with an 18,000' transition altitude and Europe, or the UK, cannot standardize one?

User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Well, it appears that we may be heading towards a standard transition altitude in the forthcoming years. If fact, if it is Europe wide I could well imagine it being 18,000ft, as that clears Mont Blanc quite nicely whilst maintaining communality with the US. It may take a while though, as does everything in Europe.

I'm not complaining, it's one thing less to do on climb out. The controllers might not be so pleased though, lots more QNH transmissions coming their way and some fairly major airspace and airway reorganisation will be required.

[Edited 2013-05-04 02:05:55]

User currently offlineTatTVC From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Well now that the dust has settled, I'll chime in and thank everyone for the insight! I did in fact have a basic understanding of QNH/QNE/Transition altitude but that's just getting a start on the Commercial/CFI/ATP checkrides that are hopefully down the road. Thanks as well for the link to the UK AIP, it makes for interesting reading while waiting for time, and weather, and funding to align and actually go flying.

As to the subject of prices, could one of you from the UK explain how it came to be so expensive over here? There seems to be ample promotional materials on the web about the low cost of flying in the UK, but when dual in a Cherokee 140 costs $280/hour instead of the ~$110/hour that I'd pay in the USA, it makes for slightly unbelievable reading. Is this price disparity thanks to taxes, or availability of aircraft, or free market supply/demand reasons, or what? It's certainly a shock to see how highly regulated and tightly controlled flying GA in the UK seems to be, compared to the comparable situation in the US.

Also, what is the beef against hangers? It seems as though a good amount of the GA traffic at the local airport here in Oxford uses tie-downs on grass. I know at least from friends in the US with planes, that outdoor tie downs on grass would be the last place that they'd leave their plane parked for more than a few hours.



"Your time is limited- don't waste it living someone else's life" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17185 posts, RR: 66
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
How is it we can manage with an 18,000' transition altitude and Europe, or the UK, cannot standardize one?

The US is one country. Europe is not. Standardization in Europe is a slow process in this and other areas.

Quoting TatTVC (Reply 9):
Is this price disparity thanks to taxes, or availability of aircraft, or free market supply/demand reasons, or what?

Higher fuel prices. Higher labor costs. Lower utilization due to weather, thus higher price per hour. Probably taxation.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineasqx From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting woodreau (Reply 2):
Not specific to your UK flights, but you can only be PIC of an N-registered aircraft. So if you are flying in a G-registered aircraft, you can't be PIC unless you have an UK-equivalent pilot license. The FAA grants foreign pilots in the US FAA certificates based on foreign certification, so there might be something like that over in the UK if logging PIC time is important to you.

Actually, 61.51 of the FAR states:
(j) Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is—
(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;

Since last time I checked the United Kingdom was such a country, then yes, the OP may log the time. Since the OP is rated to act as PIC of an Airplane, Single Engine Land then he can log as PIC any time where in he is the sole manipulator of the controls.

Basically, the OP can log the flight as both DUAL RECIEVED and PIC. The FAA has different rules on logging PIC time and actually being the PIC on a flight, and this, like say training for an instrument rating, is one of those cases where he can log as PIC time even if being instructed.


User currently offlineCaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Quoting TatTVC (Thread starter):
1. If I am receiving dual, am I PIC, or the instructor, or both, or does the handing of PIC differ from the UK to the US?

If you are receiving dual, the implication being that you're under instruction and not exercising the privileges of a license. You can't carry passengers without a license (this does apply to "flight crew" or instructors), therefore you can't be PIC.

Quoting U2380 (Reply 1):
The instructor I would assume.

Correct, assuming the above.

Quoting TatTVC (Thread starter):
2. Major differences in UK vs. US flying, in terms of ASEL aircraft, re rules, requirements, regulations?

That's a major can of worms that really can't be opened in a forum thread. The UK is a member state that has filed one of the largest number of differences from ICAO.

Quoting woodreau (Reply 2):
There are some N-registered aircraft in the UK, so maybe you might luck out without having to go through the paperwork dance.

There's loads around, especially at some of the busier GA fields. Naturally, not many of the flying clubs and schools own them, but will certainly put you in touch with the guy that does.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
QNH = local altimeter setting. QFE = an adjustment so that the altimeter reads "0 msl" at runway elevation used during IFR approaches and not used much at all anymore...with some exceptions.

It's used plenty over here for VFR flying.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 5):
Perhaps you can answer a question. ATC and all the rest in the UK is "spot on" but why no standard Transision Altitude? 3000' here...6000' there...other times it's in between. What's the logic? It's certainly not the terrain. As a Yank' who often flies US-UK in a biz-jet I have always wondered this.

The reason goes back to the 1950's when aircraft performance was significantly less than it was today - the same with ATC equipment. Transition altitude is also based upon location and type of airspace - so it's not just to do with terrain clearance. Nowadays, of course, most aircraft can climb above transition very quickly.

We essentially tried to be too clever about it, and now it just looks ridiculous to anyone who flies around the UK.

There is an ongoing consultation with the CAA about harmonising the transition altitude to that of the USA at 18,000 feet. I believe the Irish authorities will do the same if, or when, the plan is given the go ahead.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9240 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting TatTVC (Thread starter):
Having my PPL for ASEL, I see no obstacle for me to log an hour of time in a PA28 here in the UK. It's ASEL, under 200hp, and fixed gear/fixed pitch prop. It will of course be dual and the flight school is well aware that I'm not a pilot who's previously flown in the UK, so regarding UK specific regulations and rules, I am expecting that the instructor will be familiar and responsible for making sure that we follow all applicable whatever-they-call-their-FAR's here in England.

Make sure you cover this with the school before you go flying. In the UK you do not have a licence or medical that allows you to fly a G registered aircraft. Some countries also consider each type of aircraft, for example the PA28 as a type rating, class rating like the ASEL are not universal. I am not that familiar with that end of the spectrum, on commercial airlines they now want us to do skills tests to maintain ratings on our UK licences.

It is getting harder and harder for people to bring qualifications from outside the EU into the EU as they have different requirements.

Ask the school to see if you can still get a validation of your FAA PPL in the UK still, it used to be possible years ago. With their current transition to EU licence system, I know this was one of the areas which was changing. If it is possible, you effectively get a UK PPL based upon your FAA PPL.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 5):
Perhaps you can answer a question. ATC and all the rest in the UK is "spot on" but why no standard Transision Altitude? 3000' here...6000' there...other times it's in between. What's the logic? It's certainly not the terrain. As a Yank' who often flies US-UK in a biz-jet I have always wondered this

It is terrain related, a lot of the UK has low terrain, geographical size, as well as the larger/faster changes in pressure gradients experienced in the UK. In short, it works for them.

Quoting asqx (Reply 11):
Actually, 61.51 of the FAR states:
(j) Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is—
(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;

These rules for recognizing flight times are universal, it is not something particular to the US. However in order to log flight time in a G registered aircraft, one needs to first follow the rules regarding logging the flight time in a G registered aircraft the UK. That valid flight time is then transferred to the US. Likewise the rules a pilot flying a N registered aircraft in the UK, must first follow the FAA regulations first, and then transfer them to the UK.

Otherwise you would have people logging flight time while they are a passenger in the back of a commercial airliner, or on a joy flight. There are requirements to be met before someone can act in different roles as flight crew, and thus log time. In the UK, like the US, you need to have a UK medical before logging SPIC/PIC time.

The UK CAP 804 lists a couple of examples of the way flights can be logged in the US which are not compatible with the UK requirements. When logging flight time in a different country, one needs to be aware of the local rules FIRST, and not as a secondary consideration.

Logging of flight time is tighter controlled in the UK, logbooks are different, they require more detail. If someone wants to get a UK licence issued, I have known them to reject, and even refer cases to the police where flight time is logged incorrectly. Logging of flight time is a legal process, it is in the ANOs etc, a pilots log book is a legal document, making false entry is illegal.

Where this usually comes crashing down on people is when there is an incident, and they investigate people. If insurance companies can find a pilot has incorrectly logged flight time, it can be considered invalid. The pilot maybe personally liable for all damage as well as criminal charges.

Quoting asqx (Reply 11):
Basically, the OP can log the flight as both DUAL RECIEVED and PIC. The FAA has different rules on logging PIC time and actually being the PIC on a flight, and this, like say training for an instrument rating, is one of those cases where he can log as PIC time even if being instructed.

Similar rules are in the UK, and they need to be followed prior to logging flight time in a G registered aircraft. A FAA PPL holder cannot log PIC time in a G registered aircraft unless they first meet the requirements for logging PIC flight time in a G registered aircraft (medical etc). The FAA PPL does not carry any privileges for flying a G registered aircraft, it does not allow you to log flight time. Dual is different, however you will need to check with a school, normally dual needs to be "towards" a licence etc, otherwise it is just a joy flight where the passenger just happens to hold a FAA PPL.

There are a lot of people who go from UK/Europe to the US to do flight training, they all need to then convert their licence to a UK/EU one before they can act as a professional flight crew member. I have heard at the CPL/ATP level it is almost a 6-10 month process, something like 14 exams, and a couple of skills test, and some required dual time.

There used to be a validation process under the UK ANOs that allowed licence holders from other countries to exercise PPL privileges if they went through the validation process. I am not sure where this is up to, I understood the that this provision was being removed in their transition to EU regulations.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17185 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
There are a lot of people who go from UK/Europe to the US to do flight training, they all need to then convert their licence to a UK/EU one before they can act as a professional flight crew member. I have heard at the CPL/ATP level it is almost a 6-10 month process, something like 14 exams, and a couple of skills test, and some required dual time.

6-10 months for the 14 EASA ATPL ground exams is about right. 6 months is really pushing it, even studying full time. If you have the hours requirements for the ATPL already you don't have to do the mandatory 4 weeks of classroom work but the classroom work is aimed at preparing for the exams so it is probably a plus in any case.

Helicopter ATPL and CPL (heli and airplane) is 13 exams since you don't need the IFR Communications exam. Hardly saves any time or effort since that exam is very short, relatively easy and overlaps significantly with the VFR Communications exam.

Then you have to do the skills test and so forth. From what I have read it is 15 hours minimum for the ATPL, but 20 hours is a realistic number, with a minimum of 5 in the aircraft.

[Edited 2013-05-07 21:25:18]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2955 times:

If you go talk to the guys at Pilot Flight Training at Oxford Airport they know. I've flown with them on my FAA license. Basically you're allowed day VFR. However, atc is quite different from the US when it comes to VFR reporting and flight following is basically not used. Converting my FAA to EASA that was actually one of the biggest things to overcome. But take a couple of flights with an instructor and you'll know.

If you don't mind leaving the Oxford area I can suggest Stapleford in Essex. Bit cheaper and less busy airspace. Flying along the southern coast of the UK is a joy.

//A-firm



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
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