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Boeing 747-400 Wing Variances?  
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5804 times:

Hello,

I was out plane spotting and saw a BA 744 landing, immediately followed by an AF 744. I made videos of both landings and, upon review, noticed that the flaps look different on the two birds. So I thought I would ask the following. Other than engine type-related variances, are there any major mechanical variances in the wings/flaps of the BA and AF fleets? I thought that all 744s were pretty much the same, with the possible exception of the 744ER.

The visual difference in flaps that I am referring to can be seen at 0:24 (BA) and 2:24 (AF) in the video link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojsnpUnh2Qw

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thank you

[Edited 2013-05-12 00:19:10]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2230 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Probably BA performed a flaps 25 landing
Seen the increased spacing between the TE flap segments, AF performed a flaps 30 landing.

On all 744 series, incl. the 744ER, the TE flaps are identical.

[Edited 2013-05-12 01:32:16]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):
Probably BA performed a flaps 25 landing
Seen the increased spacing between the TE flap segments, AF performed a flaps 30 landing.

Thank you for the information. That begs the question why the different flap configurations for the same flying conditions? However, I suspect I will need to go to flight school to learn that answer.  


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 2):
That begs the question why the different flap configurations for the same flying conditions?

IIRC for saving fuel the approach with flaps 25 is quite common with BA 747s at Heathrow.


User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2230 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

A lot a variables can influence the decision for a flaps 25 or flaps 30 landing :

- Landing weight
- Runway length
- Local noise regulations (idle reverse, upon landing))
- OAT
- Field elevation
- Autoland
- Aircraft defects (one brake U/S, reverser U/S )
- Company policy (fuel saving - noise avoidance)
- Maintenance costs (flap tracks - brake wear)

But, in the end it's always the captain's decision.

[Edited 2013-05-12 04:29:02]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 2):
That begs the question why the different flap configurations for the same flying conditions?

As stated by 747classic, and amongst other reasons, the particular procedure for each airline has a lot to do with landing flap choice.

One airline made the choice to do flap 25 landings as a standard procedure, to reduce noise fees as well as TR and flap maintenance. Page 125 of the following also states that flap 25 landings were chosen to put more energy into the brakes, which actually decreased wear rates.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24447/aair199904538_001.pdf

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4783 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

F25 is also preferable in strong, gusty wind conditions.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8297 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
I thought that all 744s were pretty much the same, with the possible exception of the 744ER.

There are only four major variances you will ever find on 747-400 wings, and two of them are cosmetic:

1. The engine pylons differ significantly in size and shape depending on whether PW, GE, or RR are installed.

2. No winglets are installed on the -400D.

3. Some operators have a painted stripe on the 2nd and 3rd flap slots, while others are solid colored.

4. Some operators have a darkened area running the length of the center skin panel on tops and bottoms of the wings (the areas covering the fuel tanks)



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1214 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4396 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The Airliners.net Photo Search Engine is an amasing place to look up all sorts of things,
and truly amasing what one can learn.

By searching through "Aircraft Window Views" on the Boeing 747 flaps , you can see all kinds of landing-configurations,
from this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



to this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hayk Martirosyan



ending up with:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andries Waardenburg




All series Boeing 747 featured triple slotted flaps, ECEPT the -SP which had a double pivot, single slot flap:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



Scooter01   



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 8):
All series Boeing 747 featured triple slotted flaps, ECEPT the -SP which had a double pivot, single slot flap:

The -8 has single-slotted outboard flaps and double-slotted inboard flaps.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1214 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4384 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
The -8 has single-slotted outboard flaps and double-slotted inboard flaps.

Sorry, forgot about that one. (It's too new for me, haven't flown on one yet)

Scooter01   



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 10):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
The -8 has single-slotted outboard flaps and double-slotted inboard flaps.

Sorry, forgot about that one. (It's too new for me, haven't flown on one yet)

Scooter01   

No worries. The -8 throws people off. 

[Edited 2013-05-13 01:59:54]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 7):
No winglets are installed on the -400D.

-400D also lacks the wingtip extensions of other -400s to which the winglets are attached. It thus has the same wingspan as all earlier 747s.


User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
All series Boeing 747 featured triple slotted flaps

Are there any other large airliners that had/have triple-slotted flaps? Also, any thoughts on why the new -8 has discarded the triple-slotted design?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
All series Boeing 747 featured triple slotted flaps

Are there any other large airliners that had/have triple-slotted flaps?

727. Ok so it isn't a widebody but definitely large.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 13):
Also, any thoughts on why the new -8 has discarded the triple-slotted design?

Complexity costs both in construction and maintenance. With more modern aerodynamics Boeing could achieve the same performance without the triple-slotted design.

Same reason the 787 has offset hinge flaps and does away with flap tracks. Simpler and cheaper.

[Edited 2013-05-13 16:41:21]

[Edited 2013-05-13 16:43:01]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Same reason the 787 has offset hinge flaps and does away with flap tracks. Simpler and cheaper.

A great picture illustrating this;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Flaps_Mechanism_B787_A320.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...5/51/Flaps_Mechanism_B787_A320.png

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8297 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 8):
By searching through "Aircraft Window Views" on the Boeing 747 flaps , you can see all kinds of landing-configurations,

  

You can also find the cosmetic differences in the flap markings and wing skin panels I mentioned above  



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Quoting Jetmech (Reply 15):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Same reason the 787 has offset hinge flaps and does away with flap tracks. Simpler and cheaper.

A great picture illustrating this;

Great pic indeed. Another neat feature on the 787 flaps is that the spoiler panels droop to cover some of the gap when the flaps extend.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 887 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

Quoting Jetmech (Reply 15):
A great picture illustrating this

Good picture. I've never seen anything similar in the public domain. The 787 angle is wrong though.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
Another neat feature on the 787 flaps is that the spoiler panels droop to cover some of the gap when the flaps extend.

It came from the C-17, and is also a feature of the A350. The width of the slot is very tightly controlled on the 787.


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