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Cessna Citation Training  
User currently offlinepiaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Hows it going guys?

Quick question, I currently have my PPL and am working towards my ATP. I trained in a Cessna 150 to get the PPL and need to start work on my Instrument. Because of interesting circumstances, I may possibly have a Citation at my disposal to train on as well. I'm guessing that would surely cover the multi/complex rating but how would I even get into the position of flying the Citation? What would I need to do in order to even start training on it?

Thanks,
Piaflyer

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Thread starter):
What would I need to do in order to even start training on it?

I suppose you could do some reading,

http://www.smartcockpit.com/larger-free-online-aviation-library.html

Plenty of systems information here to get you started,

http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/CESSNA/CITATION-BRAVO.html
http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/CESSNA/CITATION-EXCEL.html
http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/CESSNA/CITATION-JET-SERIES.html
http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/CESSNA/CITATION-SOVEREIGN.html
http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/CESSNA/CITATION-X.html

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlinen6238p From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

What type of Citation is it? What ratings does the pilot of the plane hold? Also what type of operation is the aircraft running? I got plenty of "brag to friends at the bar" right seat mustang time. Still looking for that column in my logbook though.


To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21794 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

I would strongly advise you to get your instrument rating before you attempted any flying in jet aircraft, even with an instructor. In order to fly jets properly (or any high performance aircraft, really) you need to have a good deal of finesse on the controls, and the best way to learn that is through the instrument rating. In addition, a good instrument scan is a must when flying jets, even in visual conditions, and again that's something best learned by getting an instrument rating.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17108 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Thread starter):
I'm guessing that would surely cover the multi/complex rating

Multi, sure. Complex, I don't think so. The regs specifically state that a complex airplane has a "controllable pitch propeller". Nothing about turbines.

(3) Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control.

Also, would you do your multi checkride in the Citation? You'd have to do the Vmc demo and all that, right?

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
In order to fly jets properly (or any high performance aircraft, really) you need to have a good deal of finesse on the controls, and the best way to learn that is through the instrument rating. In addition, a good instrument scan is a must when flying jets, even in visual conditions, and again that's something best learned by getting an instrument rating.

Haven't flown jets (yet) but I will chime in with Mir. I went from the Cessna 172 to the Cessna 172RG (complex) to the Piper Apache (multi). The increase in complexity at each step (and the higher speeds on the Apache) took some getting used to, and these were really quite small steps. Even going to the Cessna 182 (high performance) which really is a larger and more powerful 172 with a controllable pitch prop, took a couple of hours of practice. Making the giant jump from a Cessna 150 to turbine seems very difficult in my opinion. Certainly I would have had a very hard time in the Apache without my instrument rating.

The instrument rating is a huge skills leap. The need to think ahead and process limited data, then output precise maneuvering makes for excellent training. After the instrument rating I wondered how ostensibly sane people let me fly solo with just a PPL. What were they thinking? 



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinepiaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

The aircraft is a corporate Citation I. It does runs for clients and I possibly could be in the right seat of it. Hoever I'm just not sure what benefit it would do for me.

User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3151 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Reply 5):
The aircraft is a corporate Citation I. It does runs for clients and I possibly could be in the right seat of it. Hoever I'm just not sure what benefit it would do for me.

Until you have a commercial multi engine rating, nothing. After that, the experience isn't enough to justify unless you are properly trained and compensated by the owner. While one of the "simpler" jets out there it's still a far cry from what you're doing now. Legally, you wouldn't be able to log any time with your current ratings and I doubt any company or clients would be too keen on knowing that one of their "pilots" isn't properly trained and I would also question the motive of someone who is willing to let low time pilots sit in the right seat and log time instead of paying qualified individuals.



DMI
User currently offlinepiaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

It would be strictly for logging hours. I would not be paid or compensated in any way nor am I working for the company. The flight is normally operated by a single pilot anyways, I would just be there for the ride along.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17108 posts, RR: 66
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Reply 7):

It would be strictly for logging hours. I would not be paid or compensated in any way nor am I working for the company. The flight is normally operated by a single pilot anyways, I would just be there for the ride along.

As I see it:
- You would need commercial multi first since you are flying for hire, then you could log training hours if you are in fact training with an instructor in the left seat.
- In order to log second in command time the aircraft would have to require two pilots, which it does not, and you would also need a type rating.

So beyond bragging rights you don't get much out of it. Sure, it is experience, and experience always counts for something. However your time would be better spent getting your instrument, commercial and multi first.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinefreeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Reply 7):
It would be strictly for logging hours. I would not be paid or compensated in any way nor am I working for the company. The flight is normally operated by a single pilot anyways, I would just be there for the ride along.

Ask yourself first, will the trip still go if I'm not in the seat? If the answer is yes, then definitely go along if you get the opportunity, even if there is no way to log it.

I got my first turbine right seat ride in a King Air 350 at 65 hrs by networking. I rode with them quite a few times after that and it eventually morphed into me flying for a different company in the right seat of a King Air 200 and getting PAID for it. That opened a lot of doors down the road for me.

Don't stop flying on your own though. You'll still need the certificates which they most likely won't be able to be done in the Citation (mainly for insurance reasons, among other things).

Do it, have fun and learn something.



"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
User currently offlinewingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

The small Citations are single-pilot certified, so you won't be 'needed' necessarily, but if the captain is instructor rated then you can log some twin turbine time - only question is the cost? Citation instruction time is not cheap, but if you're able to 'tag along' free of charge somehow that would be a golden opportunity. If I were in your shoes I would jump at the chance!


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Reply 7):
It would be strictly for logging hours. I would not be paid or compensated in any way nor am I working for the company. The flight is normally operated by a single pilot anyways, I would just be there for the ride along.

There is no way for you to log any time in this scenario outside of dual received if the PIC is a MEI. He would have to sign each logbook entry.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
- In order to log second in command time the aircraft would have to require two pilots, which it does not, and you would also need a type rating.

He wouldn't need a type rating to serve as SIC as long as it's a domestic flight. (unless the rules have changed).

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
So beyond bragging rights you don't get much out of it. Sure, it is experience, and experience always counts for something. However your time would be better spent getting your instrument, commercial and multi first.

I would take every opportunity I could to sit right seat and get all the experience I could in it. I wouldn't log it in any shape, form, or fashion though. One, outside of 'dual received", there is no category to log it. You can't serve as SIC since you're not multiengine rated.

What has been left off so far is a future interview. You say you're working towards your ATP, so I'm going to make the assumption you plan to fly for a living. At some point you will be sitting across a table from someone who is pouring over your logbook sniffing it for bullshit. You may have to defend any given entry. I can guarantee that an interviewer is going to see Citation time, before you passed your multi checkride and start asking questions. They may start asking systems questions on that airplane. You had better know it. You may be asked to describe the hydraulic system, electrical, fuel system, whatever. Simply put, there is no such thing as "just logging time in jets". Those entries can easily come back to bite you.


User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3151 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting piaflyer (Reply 7):
It would be strictly for logging hours. I would not be paid or compensated in any way nor am I working for the company. The flight is normally operated by a single pilot anyways, I would just be there for the ride along.

The hours you log can be considered compensation, as you're using it to show experience somewhere down the line. If you want to ride along in the front seat, go for it. At the very least, it would be a neat experience. I had the opportunity to do that in a CJ-2. I didn't log a bit of the time though after seeking out an FAA inspector I had frequent encounters with for advice. You never know when you might have an interviewer with a ton of experience in an aircraft you logged a couple hours in years ago.



DMI
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2487 times:

I don't have much to add from what has already been mentioned here, but I will say that when I was working at an FBO that did a lot of charter work I too had the opportunity many times to fly in a number of aircraft that were much more advanced than where I was in my training (e.g., KA-200, KA-90, BE-58). As others have said, not all of that time will really get you anywhere in the short term, but I did fly into a lot of airports that I never would have otherwise. I worked the radio flying right seat in a KA-90 into ORD and STL for example. And, learned a lot about high traffic airports. Something I never would have done before.

If you can do it, do it. The person flying with you probably already knows you so he'll be more than willing to teach you something new.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offline777ord From United States of America, joined May 2010, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

I always say, if you can get the flight time, and spend the time learning it. It'll vastly expand your abilities... BUT, you can't just show up and be clueless to that aircraft and its procedures. Dry flying her in the hangar will be expoentially helpful prior to flight.

But then again, so is getting your ratings necessary prior to operating such equipment.


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