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St Maarten, An Accident Waiting To Happen  
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4669 posts, RR: 19
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13906 times:

Day after day we see pictures of all different types of Aircraft, from the smallest up to 747's flying as low as possible, barely clearing the fence before touching down.


This is completely unnecessary and downright dangerous.


The runway is not that short and, in any case flying a very shallow approach more often results in a long landing. A normal three degree approach angle and touching down in the touchdown zone is what is required.


It amazes me that professional Pilots would put so much at risk just to look 'cool'



One of these days there will be a price to pay.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineak907 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13874 times:

What makes you think the pilots do it to look cool?

Also, I like how your little quote on the bottom fits your post!


User currently offlinespink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13780 times:

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):

The runway is not that short and, in any case flying a very shallow approach more often results in a long landing. A normal three degree approach angle and touching down in the touchdown zone is what is required.


a 3 degree approach is what is used. Do you know how shallow 3 degrees is?


User currently offline77West From New Zealand, joined Jun 2009, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13748 times:

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
This is completely unnecessary and downright dangerous.

The same could be said of many, many airports around the world. If flown properly there is no issue. I hardly think they do it to look cool, it is just another destination for them.



77West
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21487 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

The distinction is only that there are no approach structures close to the runway but a public beach.

May matter to the bathing people but not necessarily to the safety of the approach.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13652 times:

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Day after day we see pictures of all different types of Aircraft, from the smallest up to 747's flying as low as possible, barely clearing the fence before touching down.

They do fly a three degree approach.

What you are seeing is basically an optical illusion because of the runway placement.

The threshold is only 285 feet from the roadway. The touchdown zone just 1,000 ft past that.

As a comparison - LHR 09R has 2,500 ft from the road to the threshold.

But yes, I do agree that someday someone is going to land short and hit people on the beach/ road.

I've been a couple places in the world with roads on military bases that close to a runway - and they stop traffic when planes are landing/ taking off. Anything in the area of the beach would be restricted / off limits.

But at SXM - that road and beach make a lot of money. And money talks.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13598 times:

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):

I couldn't agree more.

Quoting spink (Reply 2):

a 3 degree approach is what is used. Do you know how shallow 3 degrees is?

About 55' over the threshold if touching down 1,000' down the runway. With the beach about 300' from the threshold, this should put aircraft at least 75' above the top of the beach if following a 3 degree glide path to the fixed distance markers.

Certainly not the case with these:


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Photo © Rotate


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Photo © Thomas Brackx


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Photo © David Takahashi

Quoting 77West (Reply 3):
If flown properly there is no issue.

That is the issue.

Quoting 77West (Reply 3):
I hardly think they do it to look cool, it is just another destination for them.

I've met plenty of pilot personalities who do things because they think it is cool, even though it's not.

Insel Air has a reputation for putting on a show at SXM. How else do you explain taxiing on unusable pavement (the chevrons) simply to increase the jet blast affect on beach goers? JetBlue did the same several months ago, which resulted in a serious injury on the road.


Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
But at SXM - that road and beach make a lot of money. And money talks.

And still will make a lot of money if the few that feel the need to put on a show follow a 3 degree glide path like everyone else. How much money do you think the island would lose if someone clips their landing gear on the fence or a vehicle (or worse) causing the runway to be closed, even if for a short period?

[Edited 2013-07-08 07:50:55]


FLYi
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10107 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13561 times:
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Quoting PITrules (Reply 6):

Insel Air has a reputation for putting on a show at SXM. How else do you explain taxiing on unusable pavement (the chevrons) simply to increase the jet blast affect on beach goers? JetBlue did the same several months ago, which resulted in a serious injury on the road.

Do you have links for those? Just curious as I hadn't heard about that.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13553 times:

Every time a topic about SXM's low approaches comes up I always remember these:


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Photo © JAR Photography


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Photo © Chris Starnes


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Photo © Trent R Sellers




Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13556 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):

Do you have links for those? Just curious as I hadn't heard about that.

Here is a video of the JetBlue injury:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CGqx1Y2T8c

As for Insel Air, there are photos of them in the database taxiing on the chevrons (unauthorized for aircraft movement) to get closer to the fence.


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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt


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Photo © Cary Liao - AeroPX


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Photo © Cary Liao - AeroPX




FLYi
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13393 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 8):
Every time a topic about SXM's low approaches comes up I always remember these:

Those are three different pictures by three different photographers of ONE aircraft landing short on ONE day - July 2, 2006.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13362 times:
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How long as SXM been open?

How many landings per day does it see?

How many planes have hit the fence while attempting to land?


User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13343 times:

The biggest danger at SXM is the terrain avoidance on departure not the arrival. There’s no ILS, which makes it more challenging, but there are hundreds of airports in the world that receive large jets without an ILS. The uniqueness is a relatively short runway with the public allowed so close to the threshold. If you stand 300ft from the threshold of any 7500ft runway that has large jets, you will see the same low approaches.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10107 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13329 times:
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Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
There’s no ILS, which makes it more challenging, but there are hundreds of airports in the world that receive large jets without an ILS

Even airports that have ILS will do visual approaches when able, like LAX and SFO. Although one can back up a visual approach with an ILS, it shouldn't be a necessity by any means.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 12):
relatively short runway

I wouldn't call 7500 feet "relatively short", but I suppose that's my opinion.  



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1389 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13235 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
Even airports that have ILS will do visual approaches when able, like LAX and SFO. Although one can back up a visual approach with an ILS, it shouldn't be a necessity by any means.

You should have qualified that statement by starting with 'In the US ...'.

The main airports of the world outside the US will not, generally speaking, offer you a visual approach when an ILS is available. You may ask for it, and they might even give it to you, but you should expect radar vectors to an ILS - regardless of the severity of CAVOK.

It is my firm belief one main reason visual approaches are so common in the US, is to pass a large portion of the separation bucket to the pilots.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21693 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13186 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
It is my firm belief one main reason visual approaches are so common in the US, is to pass a large portion of the separation bucket to the pilots.

That is one reason. It also allows pilots to take more direct paths to the runway. Both of those help move traffic faster.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinedanvs From Brazil, joined Jul 2009, 254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13148 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
You should have qualified that statement by starting with 'In the US ...'.

The main airports of the world outside the US will not, generally speaking, offer you a visual approach when an ILS is available. You may ask for it, and they might even give it to you, but you should expect radar vectors to an ILS - regardless of the severity of CAVOK.

Exactly.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
That is one reason. It also allows pilots to take more direct paths to the runway. Both of those help move traffic faster.

It also reduces workload on air traffic controllers during peak hours.


User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13071 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):
Those are three different pictures by three different photographers of ONE aircraft landing short on ONE day - July 2, 2006.

And you don't think I know that??? I posted all three to show how low and how short that particular aircraft landed...



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offline77West From New Zealand, joined Jun 2009, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13053 times:

Looking at those pics more closely I will admit they seem a bit low on the 3 degree angle. I would think more to maximize available runway on a short field, rather than putting on a show. They should NOT be on the chevrons though! Seen planes sink through as the pavement is not always strong enough. Perhaps an ILS should be installed for this approach. Probably to expensive though.


77West
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9159 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13034 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
The main airports of the world outside the US will not, generally speaking, offer you a visual approach when an ILS is available. You may ask for it, and they might even give it to you, but you should expect radar vectors to an ILS - regardless of the severity of CAVOK.

Not that uncommon at airports that have PRM approaches to be given a visual when conditions are CAVOK.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13026 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):

I wouldn't call 7500 feet "relatively short", but I suppose that's my opinion.

I agree. For a 737 it isn't short. For a 747, it is.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10107 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12975 times:
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Quoting roseflyer (Reply 20):
I agree. For a 737 it isn't short. For a 747, it is.

Would depend on how heavy it was, I would think.

Europe-bound 747s take off and land on BOS's runway 9-27 (7000 feet) and 4L-22R (7860 feet) fairly routinely. Whereas the transcon A320s and 737s on which I've traveled seem to usually use 4R-22L (10005 feet) or 15R-33L (10083 feet).



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12936 times:

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):

I wouldn't call 7500 feet "relatively short", but I suppose that's my opinion.

I agree. For a 737 it isn't short. For a 747, it is.

For the shorthaul routes operated by KLM 747s from SXM, 7,500 feet is more than enough. If memory correct, KL operated nonstop from AMS to SXM, but the aircraft then continued to other points in the Caribbean before returning nonstop to AMS from airports like CUR with longer runways. SXM-CUR is only 478 nm.


User currently offline802flyguy From United States of America, joined May 2012, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12805 times:

Aviation Blvd in LAX is very, very, close to the end of the 25 runways (don't know the exact distance). Close than Sepulveda to the 24s) But there is no beach, just an ugly four lane street.

User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10107 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12778 times:
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Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 23):
Aviation Blvd in LAX is very, very, close to the end of the 25 runways (don't know the exact distance)

It's about 360 feet from the threshold of 25R (about 1300 feet from the displaced threshold), and about 1250 feet from the threshold of 25L. So aircraft taking off from 25R are quite close, but there's a big blast fence between the runway and the road.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
25 Max Q : Pretty amazing an Airline crew would not know this, not, perhaps the most brilliant Pilots..
26 ptrjong : Isn't SXM governed by the Dutch CAA? I'd be surprised if they allowed the public so close to the threshold.
27 Starlionblue : That would be EASA now, but ignoring the particular authority, I have no doubt there are strong local interests at play. Maho Beach is a big tourist
28 ptrjong : I guess you're right.
29 Starlionblue : A compromise solution: - Block pedestrian access to the parts of the road that are directly behind the runway, plus the flat parts of the beach beyond
30 JRadier : While I agree with you with the part that one shouldn't taxy on the chevrons, but why assume this is to increase the jet blast effect, and not for pe
31 Starlionblue : There should be no need to do it for performance reasons, especially in that aircraft. The runway calculation is done based on the distance available
32 Post contains images NorthStarDC4M : Except the government of Dutch St Maarten would rather keep the tourism money coming. That road is narrow and busy enough as it is. It's not the US t
33 Post contains links ptrjong : I read on Wikpidedia (Dutch) that the lawsuit of a Swiss woman who got injured by the jetblast of an AF 747 is still going on after the Dutch Supreme
34 roseflyer : I was considering landing and on a wet 7,500ft runway at sea level and no wind, a 747 is limited to about 565,000lbs. That is not far off what an inb
35 mandala499 : Is that factored landing distance required as per dispatch, or actual advisory landing distance (unfactored) as per QRH?
36 roseflyer : The ACAP for airport planning.
37 Post contains images mandala499 : Ah, that'll make it the dispatch numbers, ie: factored landing distance required... which is 1.66 times the actual required landing distance (include
38 flynlr : I have never understood why folks want the government to protect them from their own stupidity . the need for nanny-ism is very strong these days, unf
39 hivue : You can't (legally) land on the chevrons. If you can't taxi on them either, why the heck are they even there? If the pavement is unusable, remove it.
40 Post contains images flyingturtle : To avoid blasting sand and other stuff into areas where it might harm people or equipment. I thought the name "blast pad" would be self-explanatory.
41 Post contains links hivue : Here is a blast pad (or at least the barrier for one): http://www.airliners.net/photo/South...d=2095d3ac6cf7cb5c21f75f592a0ba2c4 But I suppose if a h
42 Starlionblue : They may be used for accelerate-stop distance. They may be used for take-off distance available. They may not be used for take-off run available. All
43 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : I always understood that chevron markings at the end of a runway designated blast pads. This is a blast fence (or blast deflector) to me: Wikipedia:
44 B747400ERF : Such as?
45 FlyASAGuy2005 : The woman's own stupidity caused her injury.
46 Post contains images hivue : I believe you are correct. I looked up the same Wikipedia article -- unfortunately, after my last post. It sounds like the blast pad is intended as m
47 trav110 : Who cares. God forbid somebody fall and hurt themselves when they are standing directly behind a plane as it's taking off. Let them do what they want,
48 Max Q : The stupidity of bystanders is one thing. The stupidity and recklessness of Pilots deliberately taxiing on part of the runway not approved for operati
49 FlyASAGuy2005 : The tower most likely does not care.
50 airportugal310 : You're an interesting character. As I recall you are or were a pilot for a major US airline, yet we find you constantly talking down about some of yo
51 Jetlagged : Come on, why would they do this deliberately and endanger their own lives? What do they gain? What thrill do you imagine they get from it? Any low th
52 Max Q : Not true, with respect to my peers I have nothing but the utmost respect, for those that conduct themselves professionally, I have no respect for tho
53 YYZatcboy : No he is not. He is questioning your premise that this is a deliberate conscious action on the part of the pilots, for which you have yet to provide
54 Max Q : The evidence is in the pictures ! A normal approach has you crossing the threshold (not the extended threshold) at 50 feet, the aircraft in these pho
55 Post contains links YYZatcboy : So the most photographed airport in the world has a handful of pictures of low approaches and that's evidence of a deliberate ploy by pilots to be ir
56 Max Q : Actually I think that some of these Pilots mistakenly believe they will touch by approaching beneath the correct glide slope and others are indeed ju
57 Max Q : (Cont'd) A good Pilot has the training and experience to recognize a bad approach and correct it. Wadrs as a non Pilot it is very difficult for you to
58 KPWMSpotter : I'm going to step into the fray here and say both sides are right. I've been to St. Maarten and I've seen plenty of pilots blatantly showing off. Ther
59 Jetlagged : Who are they showing off too? The people on the beach have no idea who the pilot is, and the other pilot is not going to be impressed. I've met enoug
60 Post contains images PITrules : You won't find me riding the fence. Having said that, stupidity is not illegal. Maneuvering an aircraft on airport surfaces marked as unusable is. I
61 apfpilot : Yeah it is, at both ends. Not by much but it is.[Edited 2013-08-12 14:31:46]
62 apfpilot : How else do you explain the usage of the blast pad for take off and taxi other than a deliberate conscious action?
63 Jetlagged : You're right, I was looking at photographs of the runway markings and the displacement isn't obvious. I should have checked before posting. The displ
64 acidradio : Folks, it's getting a bit contentious in here. I've gotten a bunch of Suggest Deletion requests in this thread. The problem is that if I had to delete
65 apfpilot : Why did this come up now? Last post was almost a month ago this thread was essentially dead.
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