Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Simulator Capability...  
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 483 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

The only aircraft simulator I have "flown" was an F4 simulator located at the old Naval Training Center in Orlando. They wanted instrument pilots to evaluate a new software program. It did not have an outside visual display, but had a real F4 cockpit and motion simulation. I found out quickly that an F4 needs a lot of power with gear and flaps!  

It looks like the current accident at SFO may result in the requirement for additional pilot training in visual approaches. Therefore my question. Are the current latest and greatest simulators adequate to practice purely visual approaches?

I realize that the accident report is not out, but can we get beyond that.

AT

9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16977 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting airtechy (Thread starter):
Are the current latest and greatest simulators adequate to practice purely visual approaches?

More than adequate. Even the 80s vintage 767 sim I have tried was very close to reality. Modern sims are way beyond that, especially given the improvement in graphics.

Nowadays the first flight in the actual aircraft for a new pilot is typically with passengers on board. You just don't see major airlines taking a 777 out just to do pattern work anymore.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2962 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting airtechy (Thread starter):
Are the current latest and greatest simulators adequate to practice purely visual approaches?

Yes, it is possible, but of course it is not 100% as in real life. But as good as it gets. I must say, doing my sessions in the simulator are very realistic. We can even train the Canarsie visual approach into JFK, which is not the easiest approach out there.

We do visual traffic patterns as well and they work quite good.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Nowadays the first flight in the actual aircraft for a new pilot is typically with passengers on board. You just don't see major airlines taking a 777 out just to do pattern work anymore.

Exactly. I did my first landing in the B747-400 in MCO with passengers on board on a regular flight. Of course there was a TRI/ TRE sitting next to me and would've been able to assist if needed. But the airplane felt just like I expected it from the many hours in the simulator.

On the MD11F back then we did a flight training and did at least 3 landings without any cargo on board.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Yes, a level D simulator will enable you to go directly to the cockpit and fly with passengers as soon as you pass the tests.

But, you need the visual flying background before that. It won't teach you how to fly if you initial phases did not teach you that.



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21388 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 2):
Exactly. I did my first landing in the B747-400 in MCO with passengers on board on a regular flight. Of course there was a TRI/ TRE sitting next to me and would've been able to assist if needed. But the airplane felt just like I expected it from the many hours in the simulator.

When starting to flare, how important is your visual impression on the one hand and the radio altitude callout on the other? And how well does the visual part transfer from the sim to the aircraft?


User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3143 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Modern simulators are extremely accurate. My company is in the process of upgrading their graphics package and the new one is insanely accurate.

Visual landing basics are something that are learned from private pilot days. While the sight picture may change over time if you fail to recognize that you're low with four red lights on a papi, slow to the point that the stick shaker is going off, and forget the basics of pitch and power to the point that you're doing an approach at idle thrust in a 500,000 pound airliner with 10,000 hours experience you're probably not going to learn.



DMI
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2572 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
When starting to flare, how important is your visual impression on the one hand and the radio altitude callout on the other? And how well does the visual part transfer from the sim to the aircraft?

Both actually is quite important. The visual reference and the 'looking at the end of the runway' to get a proper impression how fast you are descending and if the flare was too strong, not strong enough, too early or too late.
The radio altimeter call outs are helpful as you are aware at what point you start the flar. Of course it is not always the same. Hot day in DEN with a heavy 744 you start earlier to flare than in FRA with a very light 744 on a cold day. But you have a general idea when to pull.

During flare I mostly look outside, but the time before I switch back and forth between instruments and outside quite often and quickly.

The simulator does all this pretty well. But of course it is not 100% as the real thing. But after all the hours in the simulator you feel well prepared to fly the actual airplane in real life. Of course the pulse is a little higher during your first landing  

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21388 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
The simulator does all this pretty well. But of course it is not 100% as the real thing. But after all the hours in the simulator you feel well prepared to fly the actual airplane in real life. Of course the pulse is a little higher during your first landing

I can imagine.  

But it's good to know from a passenger's perspective that even and especially the intuitive part of making the landing is covered well by the simulators.


User currently offlineFlyMKG From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

The Level C sim I used to get my FE rating in the 727 was extremely rudimentary in the graphics department. A black background with white lights only. As the aircraft got close to the ground the "landing lights" would light up the runway.
When I upgraded to FO, I had to use a Level D sim. It was a black background with colored background lights. You could also get it to show a dawn scenario.
When captains would have to demonstrate the circling approach it usually required a few practice tries because of the limited number of visual monitors in all 727 sims. They would aim for a certain group of lights for the first turn and so on until they got to the runway.
Flying the sim and flying the plane are two totally different yet related skill sets that pilots must both master.

FlyMKG



Essential Power, Operating Generator.
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2541 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 8):
The Level C sim I used to get my FE rating in the 727 was extremely rudimentary in the graphics department. A black background with white lights only. As the aircraft got close to the ground the "landing lights" would light up the runway.
When I upgraded to FO, I had to use a Level D sim. It was a black background with colored background lights. You could also get it to show a dawn scenario.
When captains would have to demonstrate the circling approach it usually required a few practice tries because of the limited number of visual monitors in all 727 sims. They would aim for a certain group of lights for the first turn and so on until they got to the runway.
Flying the sim and flying the plane are two totally different yet related skill sets that pilots must both master.

What you are talking about is very old, grandfathered, technology. No sim built to Level D standard (as opposed to grandfathered) will have monitors for visual simulation. They will have 150 deg wide cross-cockpit FOV as a minimum, so circling approaches are not so limited. All must have daylight capability (though this was often disabled to save tube life). I'm puzzled by your "white lights only" description. Coloured lightpoints were the norm even on very early night CGI visuals, though blue was usually unavailable. Maybe there were maintenance issues?

Generally any simulator built to 1991 or later FAA Level D standards should be able to be used to train visual approach and landing. Even if the scene is limited to night or dusk.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Simulator Capability...
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
A New Kind Of Simulator For Cathay. posted Thu Dec 22 2011 11:25:02 by Arniepie
Total In Flight Simulator posted Fri Sep 23 2011 18:01:01 by 474218
Status Of American Airlines' 707 Simulator? posted Wed Dec 1 2010 14:44:36 by CDN707
Yoke In A A320 Simulator?! posted Sun Jun 6 2010 10:05:19 by TravelAVNut
Embraer Simulator Training posted Thu Dec 17 2009 04:48:17 by Qwame
An Airline Pilot's First Non-simulator Flight posted Sun Aug 9 2009 15:51:08 by Jawed
How Is Simulator Software Programed? posted Sun May 10 2009 03:56:23 by Mastropiero
Alteon 757 Simulator Details. posted Tue Sep 9 2008 06:00:09 by HAWK21M
Rnav Capability posted Sun Dec 16 2007 04:01:08 by Flynavy
Any Simulator Technicians? posted Sat Nov 24 2007 00:30:34 by Flynavy

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format