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Routes With Unsuitable Aircraft  
User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2428 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

Hi to you all,

I am just wondering, why some airlines are using totally unsuitable a/c on selected routes...

LOT Polish Airlines is sending their E175 regional equipment on a 4:00hrs journey from WAW to CAI.
ETHIOPIAN Airlines is sending their DASH8-Q400 on a 3:30hrs journey from ADD to ZNZ (especially with ET's 2x23KG baggage allowance in Y!)

Are these flights capable to take all passengers and cargo without restrictions? Is it still worth it to operate such trip?

Any other routes with unsuitable a/c's?

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6531 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9737 times:

Quoting debonair (Thread starter):



Hi to you all,

I am just wondering, why some airlines are using totally unsuitable a/c on selected routes...

LOT Polish Airlines is sending their E175 regional equipment on a 4:00hrs journey from WAW to CAI.
ETHIOPIAN Airlines is sending their DASH8-Q400 on a 3:30hrs journey from ADD to ZNZ (especially with ET's 2x23KG baggage allowance in Y!)

Are these flights capable to take all passengers and cargo without restrictions? Is it still worth it to operate such trip?

Any other routes with unsuitable a/c's?

Not sure if this counts, but DL tried to use the MD-88 in the past on ABQ-ATL, and they would frequently be weight restricted in the summer due to high elevation and hot temperatures. Nowadays DL uses 752s and either MD-90s, 738s, or A320s on the route during the summer.



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User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9686 times:

Opposite end of the spectrum is the CZ A380 CAN-LAX

User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

BDL to ORD aboard AA's Embrear 145's. Bad aircraft choice all around for that route.

User currently offlinegabrielchew From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3268 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9544 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 2):
Opposite end of the spectrum is the CZ A380 CAN-LAX

I flew that recently. Y was full both ways, C maybe 60%, F full one way, nearly full on the return. Maybe awful yields, but far from empty.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9484 times:

Quoting debonair (Thread starter):
LOT Polish Airlines is sending their E175 regional equipment on a 4:00hrs journey from WAW to CAI.

AC uses the E190 on some routes with block time over 5 hours, example YYZ-SEA (westbound 5:15, eastbound 4:27) and on many routes around 4 hrs.

AC (Jazz) also uses the CRJ-705 (CRJ-900 with fewer seats) on IAH-YYC (a little over 4 hrs).


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2040 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9385 times:

I guess if the aircraft in question are usually operating within parameters or with little weight penalty, then I guess that would mean these aircraft are appropriate for these routes if they make money. Or is this from a comfort standpoint?

My   



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User currently offlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9349 times:

Any long flight on a regional aircraft is miserable

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

Are there not more pax flying IAH-YYC to warrant an E-190? Does UA fly it?



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User currently offlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9325 times:

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 4):
I flew that recently. Y was full both ways, C maybe 60%, F full one way, nearly full on the return. Maybe awful yields, but far from empty.

Could the A380 be too much for SIN-LHR at 3x daily? I was on a rather empty flight (in Y) in 2012 with most people having 2-3 seats to themselves but who knows how the upper classes were filled.


User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9299 times:
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Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 7):
Are there not more pax flying IAH-YYC to warrant an E-190? Does UA fly it?

UA flie it daily with mainline equipment (mostly a320s)

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 7):
Any long flight on a regional aircraft is miserable

I've done 3+ hours on E-175s, and they are as comfortable as any mainline aircraft.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3073 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9280 times:

AS using the 737-900 (non-ER) on PVR-SEA. They had to offload luggage and route it through LAX due to weight restrictions. Of course PVR didn't bother to tell anyone so everyone without luggage in SEA had to stand in the lost luggage line. The -900 non-ER is a bit short legged for PVR-SEA. A 737-800 would work fine.

User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5461 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9194 times:

Cue all the posts on TATL 757s (which for the most part are totally suitable).

I'd nominate all the 777s flying short routes around Asia, although many of them are being replaced by A330s. The 777-200A ended up being a bit of a dog and the heavier variants are just way too much airplane for short flights. The cost per seat has to be higher than it would be with multiple narrowbody frequencies.

This goes double for all the widebodies flying sub-60 minute routes around Japan.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

How about SQ using widebody equipment on one hour (and less!) flights to and from SIN? They should have narrowbodied aircraft for that   They will max out their airframes on cycles in no time...


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBlueJuice From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

AS flying to Hawaii out of SEA on 738s can be troublesome in the winter when headwinds are strong. Unlike North American transcon A320s or TATL 757s, there is no way to make a tech stop to pump in a few more pounds of JET-A. Many stories of people getting bumped and luggage left behind when the winds do not cooperate.. Not a fun way to start a tropical vacation.

[Edited 2013-08-16 01:04:47]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 9):
Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 7):Are there not more pax flying IAH-YYC to warrant an E-190? Does UA fly it?
UA flie it daily with mainline equipment (mostly a320s)

UA's current schedule shows a mix of 738, 739, 752 and A320 on IAH-YYC. In some cases it varies by day of week.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):

I guess if the aircraft in question are usually operating within parameters or with little weight penalty, then I guess that would mean these aircraft are appropriate for these routes if they make money. Or is this from a comfort standpoint?

  

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 8):
Could the A380 be too much for SIN-LHR at 3x daily? I was on a rather empty flight (in Y) in 2012 with most people having 2-3 seats to themselves but who knows how the upper classes were filled.

One flight does not statistics make. This route is prime 744 territory so methinks a 380 is hardly a huge leap.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):

How about SQ using widebody equipment on one hour (and less!) flights to and from SIN? They should have narrowbodied aircraft for that   They will max out their airframes on cycles in no time...

Welcome to east Asia. Considering SQ is quite nicely profitable, I'm sure they've done their maths...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineUnited1689 From United States of America, joined May 2013, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Cue all the posts on TATL 757s (which for the most part are totally suitable).

Why? I've heard many stories of westbound 757s stopping in Newfoundland for a tech stop and even a UA 752 in ACY because it couldn't make it the 150nmi more to IAD.

Also we must consider DL's ATL-BSB route. That's a 9hr flight at around 3700nmi on a 752. I'm sure there are some payload restrictions on that one...



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User currently offlineLZ129 From Germany, joined Feb 2013, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8248 times:

EY regularily sends an A345 on its AUH - FRA route. That's a 2.600 nm flight in an aircraft designed for ultra-long haul flights.

User currently onlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8204 times:

All of EK's local flights to GCC, Pakistan, northern India & Iran, think they even send a 380 to JED

GF used to do the same, but they were more in the way of positioning / connecting flights

Regularly flown on wide bodies on domestic flights with SV


User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2428 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7852 times:

Also very interesting, after Travel Service canceled their B787 order, we will see many more years come the B737-800 on worldwide charter services, like here in Cancun (via Azores and Cuba):


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User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

Several situations that come to mind:

PIT-DEN on an E145 (UAX - ExpressJet). Although the same argument can hold for many of the insanely long UAX E145 flights, this case is a little different. The other PIT-DEN flights are usually E170 or Airbii/737s. This is not a long and thin route that has 3x E145s just to have frequency.

A lot of the AS intra-Alaska routes on 734s. The pax demand is usually nowhere near a 734's capacity. Hence, AS is planning to bring QX Q400s to Alaska.

Mainline aircraft operating out of EYW are often weight-restricted. EYW is about as STOL as it gets.

Until AA started using Republic with E175s, there were a ton of AE E145 routes that deserved a larger aircraft but not as large as an MD80.

Also, for fun times, how about 3h+ on a Saab 340 ANC-DUT (Dutch Harbor/Unalaska).


User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2292 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7399 times:

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 20):
A lot of the AS intra-Alaska routes on 734s. The pax demand is usually nowhere near a 734's capacity. Hence, AS is planning to bring QX Q400s to Alaska.

A lot of these flights are Combi's and subsidized.



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinejetblastdubai From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6806 times:
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Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 9):
I've done 3+ hours on E-175s, and they are as comfortable as any mainline aircraft.

The E170/175 are very comfortable to fly in. I've done 3:00+ in an E145 and I would have rather been stuck in a broken elevator with Rachael Maddow and Rosie O'Donnell instead.



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User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2292 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6753 times:

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 22):
I've done 3:00+ in an E145

I used to do IAH-PIT frequently in the E45X and it's not a bad ride. If you had an A seat it was a better ride than the 737-500's. The only perk of the 735 was the chance at upgrades.



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5461 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6685 times:

Quoting United1689 (Reply 16):
Why? I've heard many stories of westbound 757s stopping in Newfoundland for a tech stop and even a UA 752 in ACY because it couldn't make it the 150nmi more to IAD.

If we heard about other tech stops as often as we heard about TATL 757 tech stops, we'd think every airplane was unsuitable for every route. A couple of routes (no longer operated) pushed the limits -- FRA-DTW and TXL-EWR, and CDG-IAD. Most routes were and are just fine.

Quoting United1689 (Reply 16):
Also we must consider DL's ATL-BSB route. That's a 9hr flight at around 3700nmi on a 752. I'm sure there are some payload restrictions on that one...

Not sure whether there are ever restrictions, but you can go a lot further north-south than you can westbound across the Atlantic because you aren't flying straight into a headwind.

[Edited 2013-08-27 13:36:00]

25 United1689 : No headwinds, but BSB is a hot and high airport. ET operates a 763 on ADD-GRU, and it requires two tech stops for a total flight time of around 17.5h
26 Post contains images pilotpip : They are comfortable aircraft (in the back. The pilot seats suck) but when you get over 3 hours you quickly start running into performance issues if
27 Viscount724 : There are no tech stops on that route and ET uses the 787-8, not the 763, based on current schedules. The flight operates ADD-LFW-GIG-GRU-LFW-ADD. LF
28 crj900lr : Took one from ORD-YEG not to long ago and it was a excellent ride. I believe it was close to 3 hrs.
29 jetblastdubai : Sorry to hear about the E170 crew seats. I would have thought that crew comfort/human factors would have been near the top of the aircraft design. I
30 flight152 : Um. UA's 735's have been gone for some time.
31 jetblastdubai : I actually knew that...meant to type 737.
32 pilotpip : There is nothing preventing the mainline carriers from flying the larger E-jets (US Airways has 190s). Sometimes it's not cost effective to fly a sli
33 jetblastdubai : I understand that the 735/A318s were not as efficient as expected but that was because they were designed to be larger and only de-rated the powerpla
34 pilotpip : Frequency doesn't always equal cost efficiency. It's far more expensive to operate 2 170s every 90 minutes than it is one 737 once every three hours.
35 jetblastdubai : I understand that but what I was trying to get at, in a round-about way, is that as markets mature, the 40-45 seat gap between large RJs and small ma
36 pilotpip : True, but at some point the cost of a small fleet of aircraft optimized in size doesn't see a cost savings. When comparing a 190 to a 737-700 or A-319
37 jetblastdubai : Not if the regional carrier was allowed to fly the larger A/C though. The union scope clauses are preventing companies from being as efficient as pos
38 ThrottleHold : EK fly 5x daily 380's DXB-LHR and QF 2x daily DXB-LHR. Trying to get a non-reversible seat is nearly impossible.
39 flight152 : H-E-C-K (self edited) No. Almost all of us are waiting an opportunity to get out of a regional and work for a company that actually pays us a livable
40 pilotpip : You couldn't be more wrong. There is supposed to be a career progression and the erosion of scope is also eroding what little quality of life still e
41 FlyASAGuy2005 : There are year-round restrictions on ATL-BSB due to structural limits on take-off. The alternates are usually a bit out of the way combined with very
42 FlyASAGuy2005 : Pax cap still in place for the 90s but everything else can leave full. Going into the winter months nothing will be an issue.
43 BoeingGuy : QX has never flown to ORD. QX did do PDX-DEN with a CRJ (or was it BOI-DEN?). The longest QX Q400 flight was LAX-LAP. Now it's SEA-FAT, AFAIK.
44 sunrisevalley : Agreed. Recently flew FRA-TRN more comfortable than any A320 I've ever flown on like YYZ-LAX or AKL-MEL.
45 Fabo : Trouble is, airlines are not doing the frequency things for those guys who will try to save 10 bucks. They do it for the guy who has to be in Chicago
46 KenanC : Don't forget about QF DFW-BNE on the 744. It really does push it.
47 Post contains images KELPkid : Actually, 747-400ER's (the only non-freighter ER's built!). QF was the only airline to order passenger extended range models...
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