JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 3 Posted (4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3660 times:
So, I recall reading something about ground crews removing the gear pin from aircraft on pushback, and as a courtesy showing the pin to the aircrew. I captured the scene below at PHL a couple of days ago, and the guy holding the flagged item had just removed it from the front gear. Based on a search of the forum, it seems there are two typs of gear pins: one that locks the steering, and one that prevents the landing gear from being inadvertently retracted.
Can someone give a good description of what's going on in my image? Thanks!
glen From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 209 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3564 times:
Quoting jetmech (Reply 1): If downlock pins are fitted, they are usually removed sometime before pushback; thus, the pilots can directly check that they have indeed been removed on their walk-around check.
In addition, the downlock pins are usually stored in the cockpit. It's part of the flight preparation to check to have them stored at it's place. Thus preventing them still beeing installed on the gear.
"The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view." - Albert Einstein
vc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1395 posts, RR: 16 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3518 times:
Well I can not talk for a Douglas aircraft, but on other aircraft that I have been involved with they are showing that the nose down lock pin has been removed
Prior to push back all the locking pins would be removed from all gears and would be checked stowed on board, but the ground crew would fit their own nose down lock pin prior to push back and would show the crew that it had bee removed once the the push back was completed.
A steering isolate pin might also be fitted and perhaps airline individual procedure might require that it is also shown, but if it was left in then the problem would be noticed as soon as aircraft started to taxi, whereas the down lock pin would only be noticed once the aircraft was airborne, which is not a good time to find you have an avoidable problem
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 873 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3511 times:
I have worked for two airlines that fly the MD-80/90 series airplane and depending on airline policy the pin must be removed and shown to the flight crew to verify that the ramp crew has given control of the aircraft back to the flight crew. Most airlines require ground crews to show the pin while some airlines do not. Also after the pin is removed the ramp agent should check to see if the fork retracted all the way so that the pilot has full control.
It appears in the picture above the ramp agent is showing the flight crew the pin as well as marshelling them out of the ramp area.
Mender From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3429 times:
They are showing the pilots the nose wheel steering by-pass valve pin, not the ground lock pin.
To add to what has been said above the down lock pins are not usually fitted unless maintenance is being performed which will require them to be fitted or it is being towed without hydraulic power, again usually only done during maintenance. The down lock pins would not be fitted for an normal turn round. In all circumstances there should be an entry in the tech log to say the down lock pins have been fitted (and cleared once they've been removed).
Again as has been said, the crew can usually check the down lock pins are in the flight deck stowage.
However, the steering by-pass pin stays on the ground thus the flight crew cannot check it has been removed. Therefore the ground crew show it to the flight crew to reassure them that they will have authority of the nose wheel steering once they release the brakes.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31457 posts, RR: 57 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3419 times:
As pointed out in the above posts....
The Landing gear pins are for all the gears, these are normally stored in the Cockpit/Flight deck, and the crew ensure same on board before flight.
The steering bypass pin enables pushback with hydraulics pressurised to the steering system and this is shown to the pilots as clearence before taxi out.
cptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2916 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
Not germaine to jetliners (but at least it's a Douglas), on our old DC-3 the main gear lock pins (as well as gust locks - three ea. for the tail feathers and two ea. for the ailerons) were stowed behind the captain's seat and were counted and checked off by the front office (usually by the first officer) to verify removal before aircraft movement.
On one instance I can remember when procedures were not followed, the gear pins were not visually observed prior to takeoff and...you guessed it...the gear would not retract after rotation. The a/c was flown gear down on the short trip from the old blimp base on Grosse Isle, MI to nearby Oakland-Pontiac just fine, however there were a lot of heated words upon arrival. I wasn't directly envolved but I had a first-hand witness seat. regards...jack
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4472 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3340 times:
Quoting Mender (Reply 5): In all circumstances there should be an entry in the tech log to say the down lock pins have been fitted (and cleared once they've been removed).
An important point.
Quoting vc10 (Reply 3): A steering isolate pin might also be fitted and perhaps airline individual procedure might require that it is also shown, but if it was left in then the problem would be noticed as soon as aircraft started to taxi, whereas the down lock pin would only be noticed once the aircraft was airborne, which is not a good time to find you have an avoidable problem
Only speaking for myself, it's nice to know I have steering before we power up and try to turn out of a really tight space. There are few things worse than trying to make a tight 180, getting rolling and having no steering. Not pleasant.
CALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 1813 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3329 times:
Quoting jetmech (Reply 1): Most likely, the ground crew are showing the pilots the steering bypass pin in your photo.
Not most likely, but definitely.
Quoting vc10 (Reply 3): Well I can not talk for a Douglas aircraft, but on other aircraft that I have been involved with they are showing that the nose down lock pin has been removed
Doubt that. A Gear downlock pin would be installed by maintenance and removed by maintenance, not the rampers. Could be some foreign airlines do it differently, have never heard of any, but definitely not American carriers. And I seriously doubt ANY airline in the world would install gear downlock pins at the gate during normal operations. There would be many more air returns if downlock pins were installed routinely. No reason for a downlock pin to be installed as pushback is commenced, but the Steering Bypass pin better be in or the towbar will shear it's shearpin.
Part of the checklist before pushback is to verify gear downlock pins are present, number of them, and stowed before pushback.
Like many have posted, this is a verification of Nose Gear Steering Bypass Pin removal. This is also the procedure at United.
It doesn't lock the steering, it allows the steering valve's hydraulics to be bypassed so that the nose gear can be moved by the tug without shearing the pin on the towbar. At United, the ramp is supposed to hold the pin in one hand and the farthest end of the streamer in the other hand above the ramper's head.
Looking at the photo, not totally sure it is a pin he is showing the crew. Looks kinda big. Did it look like he was showing the crew a flagged item ? Looks like they might be trying to approach the aircraft.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 17298 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3209 times:
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 11): At United, the ramp is supposed to hold the pin in one hand and the farthest end of the streamer in the other hand above the ramper's head.
That's the way it was done when I worked for AirTran and when I worked for ASA. Showing the pin was one of the last things done before disconnecting the headset.
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 11): Looking at the photo, not totally sure it is a pin he is showing the crew. Looks kinda big. Did it look like he was showing the crew a flagged item ? Looks like they might be trying to approach the aircraft.
Looks like marshaling wands to me; it looks like the guy has them in the "stop/hold" position while awaiting the pilots getting clearance to taxi and flashing the nose gear lights. It's definitely not SOP to hold them in one hand....
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3436 posts, RR: 49 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 day ago) and read 3165 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 10): Thanks for all the feedback, good info! I'm going to try to submit this shot for A.net and want to make sure I have the caption correct as the entire motive is the ground crew with the pin.
The definitive answer is the ground crewmember is holding the Steering Bypass Pin in his right hand (along with ONE red wand). Per AA procedure, the Captain MUST see the Bypass Pin PRIOR to any taxi.
My guess is this individual is actually finishing the required "hand salute" to the Captain indicating the area is clear and it is safe for the aircraft to taxi. All standard AA procedures.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (4 months 19 hours ago) and read 3074 times:
Here's a different view - this image was taken just prior to the original one I posted. The guy walking away in the first pic was the one who detached the tow bar from the MD-80; he handed something that I assumed was the pin to the other guy who was also holding two marshaling wands prior to this shot. He now has both wands in one hand. I too am used to see the ground crew stretch the ribbon across two hands, so this is different. Does this new view give any clues?
apfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 192 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2893 times:
I've had to hand the pin to the pilot through the paperwork door on ATR aircraft at an airline I used to work with. I've also seen Gulfstreams try to taxi without making sure the nose gear was hooked back up. Quite a sight.
JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2885 times:
Thanks again for the replies.
I have a better edit of the first photo in the queue here at A.net. I've seen several references on this thread to "not standard SOP", etc. - I have no idea whether my photo will be accepted, but if these guys are doing something not up to standard I don't need to get them in trouble over a silly picture. I doubt anyone who cares will read this thread, but having the photo on the main database might attract negative attention if there's anything non-standard about what they're doing.
I've been after this type of shot for awhile, but if there's anything controversial here I have a shot of the full aircraft without the guys in the image. Kind of spoils the motive I'm after, but other opportunities are out there. What do you think?
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3436 posts, RR: 49 Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 hours ago) and read 2814 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 17): I've seen several references on this thread to "not standard SOP", etc.
Not sure what is "not standard SOP" in your photo.
Directly from AA Flight Manual Part-1 (applies to ALL AA operations)....
Clearance to Departure
The aircraft operator should indicate readi- ness to depart by one flash
of the nose taxi light. Prior to departure salute, Guideman must show
steering bypass pin (if applicable) has been removed by displaying the
pin to the Captain. With approved wands (lighted at night), the Guideman
should execute right- hand military salute (left arm straight down at side)
indicating the aircraft is clear to taxi.
Note: The steering bypass pin must be shown to the cockpit after a pushback.
The photos show the ground crew doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
n901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 406 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Not sure about AA, But at the Airline I work at back when MTC Pushed. I thought that the MD80/90 Nose gear steering bypass arm was on the left side, and the clip was part of the nose gear. After releasing the arm the pin was restowed back in the nose gear on to the stud that held the fork in the arm for the bypass Vlv. The rest of the types I have worked had pins that had the streamer.