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Refuelling With Pax Onboard  
User currently offlineYQBexYHZBGM From Canada, joined May 2009, 202 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

I've been on flights that have refuelled with passengers on board, while others report having to disembark and wait in the terminal during refuelling. Do the requirements for allowing or prohibiting passengers being onboard during refuelling vary by airline, by country, or by airport?

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecanadiannorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3387 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

It should be the same for pretty much every airline in Canada, the rules and standards are all layed out in the Canadian Aviation Regulations. Where I work, we are allowed to fuel with passengers on board, but it's up to the crew and more often than not they find it's easier just to ask everyone to go inside the terminal for a few minutes. Simplifies life and also gives the passengers a chance to stretch their legs and get some fresh air. The only time we usually fuel with people on board is when they need a last minute top up before departure, or if they are running late and trying to speed up the turnaround times.



Regulation... CAR 705.40:

"(3) No air operator shall permit an aircraft with passengers on board to be fuelled unless the fuelling is carried out in accordance with procedures that meet the Commercial Air Service Standards and that are specified in the air operator's company operations manual."


Standards... CAR 725.40:

"(2) Fuelling with Passengers on Board (refers to subsection 705.40(3) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations)

Aeroplanes may be fuelled with passengers embarking, disembarking, or on board under the following conditions:

(a) in order to ensure that crew members receive prompt notification of a situation threatening safety such as major fuel spill or a fire, two way communication is maintained between the ground crew supervising the fuelling and the qualified personnel on board the aeroplane so that the aeroplane can be deplaned or evacuated as necessary.

(b) a means of communication among the qualified personnel on board the aeroplane, ground/maintenance crews and fuelling agencies is determined and established and the procedures are provided to the appropriate personnel.

(c) the aeroplane engines are not running unless the aircraft incorporates a propeller brake and the brake is set. The Aircraft Flight Manual must refer to the propeller brake/engine as an auxiliary power unit (APU).

(d) During the fuelling process:

(i) aeroplane ground power generators or other electrical ground power supplies are not being connected or disconnected;

(ii) combustion heaters installed on the aeroplane (e.g. wing and tail surface heaters, integral cabin heaters) are not operated;

(iii) other combustion heaters used in the vicinity of the aeroplane are manufactured to CSA or ULC standards and approved in accordance with the Fire Commissioner of Canada for use in hazardous atmosphere;

(iv) known high energy equipment such as High Frequency (HF) radios are not operated, unless in accordance with the aeroplane manufacturer's approved flight manual where the manual contains procedures for the use of this equipment during fuelling;

(v) weather-mapping radar equipment in the aeroplane is not operated unless in accordance with the manufacturer's approved aeroplane flight manual where the manual contains procedures for use during fuelling;

(vi) aeroplane batteries are not being removed or installed;

(vii) external battery chargers are not being connected, operated or disconnected;

(viii) aeroplane-borne auxiliary power units which have an efflux discharging into the zone are not started after filler caps are removed or fuelling connections are made;

(ix) if an auxiliary power unit (APU) is stopped for any reason during fuelling it shall not be restarted until the flow of fuel has ceased and there is no risk of igniting fuel vapours, however, the APU may be operated in accordance with the manufacturer's approved aeroplane flight manual if the manual contains procedures for starting the APU during fuelling;

(x) electric tools or similar tools likely to produce sparks or arcs are not being used; and

(xi) photographic equipment is not used within 10 ft. (3m) of the fuelling equipment or the fill or vent points of the aeroplane fuel systems;

(e) fuelling is immediately suspended when there are lightning discharges within 8 km of the aerodrome;

(f) the aeroplane is fuelled in accordance with manufacturer's procedures for that type of aeroplane;

(g) the aeroplane emergency lighting system is armed or on;

(h) "No Smoking" signs on board the aeroplane are illuminated, as applicable;

(i) procedures are established to ensure that passengers do not smoke, operate portable electronic devices or otherwise produce sources of ignition;

(j) a minimum of two exits are designated evacuation exits during fuelling; one of which must be the entry doors through which the passengers embarked;

(k) the designated evacuation exits during fuelling are identified by aeroplane type and published in the company operations manual, and are clear and available for immediate use by passengers and crew members should an evacuation be required;

(l) the air operator has procedures in place to ensure that there is a ready escape route from each designated evacuation exit during fuelling, and that designated evacuation exits which are equipped with slides have the slides armed or a crew member is in the immediate vicinity to arm the slides if required;

(m) a means of evacuation such as a deployed integral stair, a loading stair or stand, a loading bridge or a passenger transfer vehicle (PTV) is in place at the aeroplane door used for the embarking and disembarking of passengers and is free of obstruction and available for immediate use by the aeroplane occupants if necessary;

(n) for aeroplanes requiring a minimum cabin crew of one, a qualified person trained in the operation and use of emergency exits and in emergency evacuation procedures who is ready to initiate and direct an evacuation is at or near the passenger entry door;

(o) for aeroplanes requiring a minimum cabin crew of more than one, at least the minimum number of flight attendants for the aeroplane type or the number of passengers on board, whichever is greater, are on board and positioned at or near each designated evacuation exit during fuelling. Flight attendants may be replaced by an equivalent number of other staff provided that they have successfully completed the air operator's approved emergency evacuation procedures training for that aeroplane type;

(p) flight crew members inform the in-charge flight attendant when they are leaving the aeroplane;

(q) where desirable for climatic reasons, and provided a flight crew member is on board or a means of communication is available to the flight attendants, an aeroplane embarking door, that is inward opening or that can be fully opened to the exterior without repositioning of loading stairs or stand, may be closed and latched if necessary to keep it closed, but may not be locked; and

(r) procedures are established to ensure that flight attendants or qualified persons replacing flight attendants in accordance with paragraph (o) are made aware of when fuelling will take place."

[Edited 2013-09-18 10:59:50]


What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

In the US it will depend on the individual company, but in general yes provided the cabin door is open.

User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 2):

In the US it will depend on the individual company, but in general yes provided the cabin door is open.

I was on a Bahamasair B732 a few years back and we had already boarded in MIA for NAS and the Captain wanted a splash of gas because of weather so they left L1 open and the cabin crew announced we had to all unbuckle our seat belts and then they would start fueling. After they walked through and made sure everyone had unbuckled, they gave the go ahead to put about 600 gallons on. It was a first for me.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently onlinePRFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

When PR was doing Tech stop in Guam for refueling, the passengers were onboard the aircraft. However, pax were asked to unbuckle their seat belts, remain in their seats and a cabin crew was assigned at each door. The front and rear doors remained open all the time with stairs or the tube connected.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

Quoting canadiannorth (Reply 1):
(j) a minimum of two exits are designated evacuation exits during fuelling; one of which must be the entry doors through which the passengers embarked;

This CAR causes the most trouble, and one about which we have to continually remind the ramp agents.

At AC, the refuelling emergency exits are always the front left and the rear right exits, except for the E175/190 where it is front left and rear left. Not only can there not be any catering trucks blocking the exit during refuelling with passengers aboard, but also the ramp area under the door must also be clear of any baggage equipment, in case slides are used.

With regard to seat belts, our SOPs changed about a year ago. The Seat Belt sign can now not be illuminated until fuelling is complete.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

From memory, EASA regs are basically:
- Refueling with pax on board is allowed as long as escape paths from emergency exits are kept clear.
- Staff must be aboard to assist in evacuation.
- Not allowed when wide-cut fuels are used, e.g. Jet-B.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2848 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 2):
In the US it will depend on the individual company, but in general yes provided the cabin door is open.

Interesting, I have been on a few westbound transcons that had to make tech/fuel stops (SLC and DEN were two of the cities I had to stop in), we pulled to a remote stand, it was snowing each time, the plane took on fuel, doors stayed closed, plane got de-iced after the fuel and we continued on to the west coast. Doors stayed shut each time though.



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 7):
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 2):
In the US it will depend on the individual company, but in general yes provided the cabin door is open.

Interesting, I have been on a few westbound transcons that had to make tech/fuel stops (SLC and DEN were two of the cities I had to stop in), we pulled to a remote stand, it was snowing each time, the plane took on fuel, doors stayed closed, plane got de-iced after the fuel and we continued on to the west coast. Doors stayed shut each time though.

Assuming US regs are similar to EASA regs on this, the doors can stay shut. The important thing is to have clear evacuation paths. For example you can't park the fuel truck where a slide would deploy.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

The IATA Aviation Fuel Supply model, which governs supply and intoplane operations to some extent (and is the document by which I do some of my work from) stipulates the following:

11. FUELLING/DEFUELING WITH PASSENGERS ON BOARD OR
EMBARKING OR DISEMBARKING

11.1 To the extent permitted by local regulations, into-plane delivery or removal of Fuel as set forth in
Article 7 may be made at Buyer's request when there are passengers or other persons on board
the aircraft or embarking or disembarking. In such event, Buyer shall be solely responsible for
ensuring that the provisions of the local airport regulations relating to such delivery or removal are
carried out, that appropriate instructions are issued by Buyer to its employees for the safety of
said persons during such delivery or removal and that such instructions are strictly observed by
its employees and said persons.

11.2 Buyer shall indemnify, defend and save harmless Seller from and against any and all claims,
demands, proceedings, damages and liabilities for death of or injury to any passengers or other
persons on board or embarking or disembarking and against all associated direct costs (including
reasonable attorney's fees) losses and expenses, caused by or arising out of into-plane delivery
or removal of Fuel under this Article 11, unless such injury or death arises from or has been
caused by the gross negligence or wilful misconduct of Seller.


So it's a little more complicated than some make it out to be
I've had to sign some indemnity forms (most notably Japan) and others just don't make a deal of it at all...

All depends on your vendors  



hit it and quit it
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1439 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
Assuming US regs are similar to EASA regs on this, the doors can stay shut. The important thing is to have clear evacuation paths. For example you can't park the fuel truck where a slide would deploy.

It will depend on the airline.


User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4674 times:

When i was working at a GA FBO a few years ago we had a medevac aircraft with a passenger on board that made a fuel stop, since the patient was in such poor shape and it wasn't feasible for her to deplane we had ARFF come over and park next to the ac with the lines charged in case something happened.


Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4493 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4646 times:
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Hmm, got me thinking. Probably years since I have been on a flight where it had a refueling stop but I can recall lots of flights when my parents were working overseas and we were crossing the pacific or from east asia to europe several times a year and I never recall BA 747s or PA 747s needing pax to be unbelted and FAs at every door or doors always open in the 70s or early 80s! Though I guess I could have missed the FAs being "on station".

User currently offlineYQBexYHZBGM From Canada, joined May 2009, 202 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4628 times:

In case it matters, the flight I was referring to was in early December 2003, on a C6 737 (not sure what variant, but I believe it was a -200) from YHZ to PIE. The FO announced before takeoff that an unscheduled tech stop in CLT would be required, and that both legs of the flight would take much longer than normal due to unusually strong headwinds. The need for a tech stop surprised me, since I thought that a 732 had adequate range to make YHZ-PIE nonstop, even with headwinds.

Turns out they weren't kidding... due to the turbulence, both passengers and FAs had to remain seated from about 45 minutes out of YHZ until arrival in CLT, which, as promised, took over 3 1/2 hours. After landing, we proceeded directly to the fuel pad rather than the terminal. I'm not sure there was a need to tell anyone to unfasten their seatbelts during the refuelling operation, as there was a rush for the washrooms -- most onboard were expecting to be able to use the washrooms in a transit area inside the terminal. I don't recall any of the cabin doors being open during refuelling other than the front galley door.

Al
YQBexYHZBGM


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 11):

When i was working at a GA FBO a few years ago we had a medevac aircraft with a passenger on board that made a fuel stop, since the patient was in such poor shape and it wasn't feasible for her to deplane we had ARFF come over and park next to the ac with the lines charged in case something happened.

I don't know how I forgot about that, I flew a lot of air ambo Lear trips! Yeah, we always had dispatch call and then we would radio the FBO in range to make sure it was there so we could quick turn and go.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2368 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 months 16 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

An LH A380 diverted to DFW yesterday due to IAH weather. Evidentially they refueled the A380 on the ramp away from the gates. The passengers were on board, the doors were closed, but there was fire equipment standing by.

A380 At DFW Sept 19 (by organizethesky Sep 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineElevated From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 295 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

I am a Flight Attendant in the States.

At my company we all must be on the plane when boarding/deplaning passengers while fueling/refueling. Only one FA is required to be onboard when fueling/refueling during an intermediate stop. One FA is required to remain near the boarding door during fueling/refueling operations. Beyond that, there is safety procedures we have in place for emergencies for a gate evacuation depending on the situation.


User currently offlinelucce From Finland, joined Jun 2011, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

I've been on AY flight HEL-LPA-FOR which was delayed so we remained on board to catch up some time.

At the beginning of the refueling the captain announced "Cabin Crew At Stations"x2. After that an announcement was made that we should open our seat belts and keep all bags stored. All electronics needed to be switched off and window shades open.

We sat next to the R2 door and had kind of a birds eye view of things. Stairs were placed at L2 . Its was a 757 so doors L/R3 are always armed. The crew put on their gloves like they do on take-off (it was like 23ºc outside so I dont suspect they did that voluntarily). As we were changing crews there, the FA's discussed whether only one of them needed to be positioned at each pair of doors as one of them had to fetch her bag further back. They agreed that one per door was enough. "Refueling completed, cabin crew, normal operations" was announced when they finished.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4151 times:

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Thread starter):
while others report having to disembark and wait in the terminal during refuelling

Which Airline are you referring to.

Normally during refuelling, the Exit path doors need to be manned by Crew & Pax are cautioned about refuelling in progress.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
Not only can there not be any catering trucks blocking the exit during refuelling with passengers aboard, but also the ramp area under the door must also be clear of any baggage equipment, in case slides are used.

The Exit path of the Refueller need to be unrestricted too.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinebarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 887 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3869 times:

We do it daily - at least 3000 times.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineonetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

Quoting barney captain (Reply 19):
We do it daily - at least 3000 times.

At my airline, we do as well. No caveats for refueling with passengers onboard, aside from stating that the "Main Passenger Door" must be open. We actually have an addendum stating that during times of inclement weather the door my be "positioned" in a closed position as long as it is not latched and locked secure.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

A little story here:

Back around 1993, I was taking a flight from Kiev to Zurich on a Swissair F100. Passengers were already loaded, but the fuel truck was late. Finally it pulls up and the crew announces over the intercom, "We are refueling, Absolutely no smoking!" (Those were the good ol' days).

As I look out the window over the wing, there is the fuel pump operator, holding the nozzle in place as the fuel flowed, and in his mouth was a smoking papirossi (an old-fashioned Russian cigarette), ashes dropping right next to the filler hole.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineonetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8195 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted Tue Sep 24 2013 20:20:43 your local time (1 hour 58 minutes 22 secs ago) and read 27 times:

Jet-A will literally put out a small fire if poured on it. It only becomes highly flammable in a vapourized state.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3459 times:

Quoting Reply 22):
Jet-A will literally put out a small fire if poured on it. It only becomes highly flammable in a vapourized state.

Petrol/gasoline is more flammable than jet fuel, but it is not Hollywood Flammable. You can throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of petrol and it will be put out. Open flames, on the other hand...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
As I look out the window over the wing, there is the fuel pump operator, holding the nozzle in place as the fuel flowed, and in his mouth was a smoking papirossi (an old-fashioned Russian cigarette), ashes dropping right next to the filler hole.

No regulations on such dangers on the airside surprisingly.............



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineflydeltajets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1787 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
No regulations on such dangers on the airside surprisingly

Every US ramp that I can think of prohibits smoking on any area of the AOA.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 26, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 25):

Every US ramp that I can think of prohibits smoking on any area of the AOA.

Similiar out here......



Think of the brighter side!
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