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ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai  
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

I suppose this is fresh off the press:

http://avherald.com/h?comment=44a68305/0000&opt=1024

My questions are as follows...

1) Does the A320 series allow the thrust levers to go to T/R when the MLG sensors does not sense a touchdown so to speak?

2) Is it bad practice to perform a G/A when the T/R is/has been selected/deployed? I know at least one airline's SOP is to commit landing once T/R is selected in fear that the T/R doors might not close properly if 'forward thrust' is selected again.

3) IF the T/R has not been selected, is there anything wrong with the PF's G/A action which might attribute to the tailstrike?

Many thanks in advance  


VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8873 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
1) Does the A320 series allow the thrust levers to go to T/R when the MLG sensors does not sense a touchdown so to speak?

Needs both main gear compressed signal

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
2) Is it bad practice to perform a G/A when the T/R is/has been selected/deployed?

Correct, standard manufacturers procedure is not to perform a rejected landing if reverse has been selected. Technically it is a rejected landing if the gear has touched down.

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
3) IF the T/R has not been selected, is there anything wrong with the PF's G/A action which might attribute to the tailstrike?

Just the amount of back stick, a rejected landing should follow a standard rotation technique.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

So would you say that after reading the report that something has gone quite wrong? Lack of CRM, possibly the violation of SOP?

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Just the amount of back stick, a rejected landing should follow a standard rotation technique.

In hindsight, shouldn't the PF select TOGA wait a few seconds for the speed to build up again then rotate, or is that the 'standard procedure' you're talking about?

[Edited 2013-10-10 08:09:27]


VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6688 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Needs both main gear compressed signal

Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3802 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.

There is no light that comes on, or other indication, but things happen. On a Boeing the spoiler lever deploys quickly. On an Airbus, the spoilers deploy, but there is no indication, but you can feel the effect.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8873 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 2):

After selecting rev, they should have stopped. The technique for a rejected landing depends a little if you are on the ground or airborne (bounce recovery), if on the ground, toga, let the speed accelerate, during this time you will get a takeoff config warning, let the speed build up, and rotate at the normal rate.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):



Spoilers are displayed on the lower sd, rev amber then green on the upper. Airbus SOP for the PM to call spoilers rev green and deceleration.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4381 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 5):
After selecting rev, they should have stopped.

Exactly, once reverse is selected you are committed to staying on the ground.


Attempting to go around after T/R activation only invites disaster.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.

I think at least the ability to select T/R on the Thrust Levers would already be a very good indication that they're on ground, would it?



VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 6):
Exactly, once reverse is selected you are committed to staying on the ground.


Attempting to go around after T/R activation only invites disaster.

What is the slam acceleration response time on the A320......is it 4 or 6 secs.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6688 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 7):
I think at least the ability to select T/R on the Thrust Levers would already be a very good indication that they're on ground, would it?

Not sure if there's a switch that disables T/R if the MLG isn't compressed, by however much it needs to be compressed. And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

On this A330 landing, and don't blink, it looks like the T/R are deployed a fraction of a second after the rear wheels on the MLG are on the ground but before the front ones are fully in contact, which would be before the full weight of the aircraft is on the gear, so I presume the T/R can be deployed anytime in the landing sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7FrQUtCVBw



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4392 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3472 times:
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Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
On an Airbus, the spoilers deploy, but there is no indication, but you can feel the effect.

The spoilers position is on the lower ECAM screen, with all the other flight control surfaces. In this case, you'll have ten upward pointing green arrows indicating spoilers extension... Hence the *Spoilers Green* call out by the PM.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
Not sure if there's a switch that disables T/R if the MLG isn't compressed, by however much it needs to be compressed. And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

Those are weight sensors, and yes, no ground signal would mean no reverse. Never heard of an incident of this type.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
it looks like the T/R are deployed a fraction of a second after the rear wheels on the MLG are on the ground but before the front ones are fully in contact

The sensors are on the struts.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6688 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
The sensors are on the struts.

OK, so do they respond to any loading on the MLG rather than the whole weight of the aircraft?



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
The sensors are on the struts.

On A320 the sensors respond to the struts being not fully extended by measuring that the torque links have moved from the full down position.
On the A330 the sensors measure that the bogie has moved away from the flight position, so yes as soon as the rear wheels have touched, the bogie moves and the aircraft is not in the air.
The B777 has a load sensor in the MLG beam up in the wing, just to be different!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Hence the *Spoilers Green* call out by the PM.

Ta. Must go flying again one day to see what you see. Spend all my life in the cockpit on the gate. Some things we never see, like ECAM Actions.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4381 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
What is the slam acceleration response time on the A320......is it 4 or 6 secs.

Er, who cares, if you try to go around after you have selected reverse and one or more does not stow you have a lot bigger problems..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

Uncommanded (and unexpected/unintended commanded) deployement pre-touchdown would in all likelihood end up way worse than no deployment after landing. You are not counting with reverse anyway for minimum field length.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 14):
You are not counting with reverse anyway for minimum field length.

I guess what you are saying is that with autobrake selected, the amount of deceleration will be the same with/without autobrake as the plane will decelerate at the same rate anyhow?



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User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4392 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2832 times:
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Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
I guess what you are saying is that with autobrake selected, the amount of deceleration will be the same with/without *REVERSE THRUST* as the plane will decelerate at the same rate anyhow?

Yes but it's more than that : reverse thrust isn't part of the landing performance certification for dry runways.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

I was under the impression that the main reason to use reverse thrust was to save brake wear and reduce brake heating, thus allowing shorter turnarounds.

WN seems to LUV reverse thrust and I always thought it was their quick turns.

Am I even close to correct?


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8873 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 17):

A320s have carbon brakes, most (not all) 737s have metal brakes. The operational considerations are different.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
reverse thrust isn't part of the landing performance certification for dry runways

What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

BTW, I'm don't intend to challenge you, I'm just a curious guy  



VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

Would be, but you don't use autobrakes if you need to stop ASAP. You'd use autobrakes when you are comfortable they will stop you in time, and then it does not matter what else you use or don't use (as long as there is enough traction)



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4392 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2540 times:
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Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

When you select autobrakes, you simply choose a deceleration rate, which , of course , will be achieved with wheel braking ( and antiskid ), your chosen reverse thrust and the amount of *other braking sysytems* : flaps, spoilers...
This means that, runway being long enough, you'd achieve the same landing distance, with a given autobrake setting, whether yoiu use the reversers or not.

Quoting Fabo (Reply 20):
Would be, but you don't use autobrakes if you need to stop ASAP.

The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.

I am pretty confident it is - it is pretty much enough to realize the deceleration is from 200ish km/h to 0 in what, a kilometer or so. More than most pilots would brake for generally. But - unless MAX on Airbus works a bit different than what I am used to - you could still achieve better braking with full manual braking. Not really used in typical day though, yes.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.

Just to be clear, Autobrake MAX can only be used on T/O for Airbus, not landings. You can only choose 2 types of decel rates for the 'contemporary' Airbus, 1 or 2 more settings for the A345/6 and with the A388, you'd even have the option to BTV (Brake to Vacate) minus the first few that came off the assembly line.

Am I right??  



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User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4392 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2206 times:
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Quoting Fabo (Reply 22):
But - unless MAX on Airbus works a bit different than what I am used to - you could still achieve better braking with full manual braking.

I have done enough Sim training to know that a pilot - the vast majority of them - can only match a Max autobrake after three or four tries : it seems too violently unnatural... The only limit on MAX is the antiskid about to block a tyre.

...But there is always the possibility of a switched-on pilot to beat the autobrake during landing by preparing very deliberately to apply maximum pedal at touch-down.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 23):
Am I right?

A20 / 330 /342,3 : Settings are Low / Medium / and Max - not recommended for landing
A345,6 : LO, 2, 3 / 4, HIgh / Max also not recommended for landing,
So 6 settings vs 3 for the rest of the fleet...
...except the A380 which has a different presentation : one *T/O* setting ( equivalent to RTO and on a dial for landing LO / 2, 3 / HI... the BTV superimposes on these.



Contrail designer
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