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767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed  
User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 9
Posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8915 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9IhQxmt08U

Just found this on YouTube. Seems pretty scary from the video. Never seen an a/c take off with the spoilers deployed, let alone moving as much as they did after rotation. I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

Happy to hear your insights.

Cheers
Coal


Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | VA SYD-OOL-SYD | JQ SYD-MEL | VA MEL-CBR-SYD | DL SYD-LAX-ATL-MIA | B6 FLL-DCA-BOS | DL BOS-L
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2948 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Ordinary cross-wind takeoff - nothing unusual. Spoilers are linked to ailerons to provide roll (in this case x-wind) control.


Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineN757ST From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Spoilers assist the aircraft with roll control at slow speeds....

User currently offlineDC9super80 From Denmark, joined May 2013, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8586 times:

On a cross-wind takeoff you will hold full ailerons deflection and spoilers in to the wind at the start of the take off roll to prevent the wind from lifting the wing. As speed increases you will release the pressure and on rotation hold the controls almost neutral and place the aircraft in a crab to maintain centerline tracking. On big heavy aircrafts the lower the airspeed the more spoilers will be used instead of ailerons

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting Coal (Thread starter):
I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

There's not way of knowing that from the video. As mentioned, spoilers are used for roll control so their extension makes sense here. As for the weather conditions, without the METAR and radar data for the time it is hard to tell if the weather was within limits.

I think it is safe to say that pilots have better information than passengers. More importantly, they don't feel like dying any more than their passengers do. Typically I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinemusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 861 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8116 times:

Quoting DC9super80 (Reply 3):

On a cross-wind takeoff you will hold full ailerons deflection and spoilers in to the wind at the start of the take off roll to prevent the wind from lifting the wing. As speed increases you will release the pressure and on rotation hold the controls almost neutral and place the aircraft in a crab to maintain centerline tracking. On big heavy aircrafts the lower the airspeed the more spoilers will be used instead of ailerons

Appropriate for a light aircraft. The flight crew training manual for the 737 basically advises an increase in aileron (therefore spoiler) deflection as speed increases. Some types advise units of roll input (marked on control column head) per 10 knots of x-wind, and the 737 flight ops manual suggests adding as much as is required to keep the wings level.

Performance calculations accomodate the extra aileron and rudder drag on a x-wind take-off.

Regards - musang


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7477 times:

All Boeing airplanes would give the crew a Warning if the spoilers were deployed while at takeoff power (not including inputs for roll control, as others have mentioned).

User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

Quoting Coal (Thread starter):
I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

This has been discussed before. It is normal with a severe crosswind: please see Starlionblue's and BoeingGuy's responses in particular.

Why would you assume that it was in any way abnormal and they should have canceled the flight? It's generally wiser to assume that the pilots do, in fact, know what they are doing and ask why a situation is outside your scope of experience. If the pilots made a gross error there are plenty of genuine experts on this site to explain that too.


User currently offlinecopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6052 times:

There are two things visible that make it appear the spoiler position is being controlled by the pilot--not inadvertently deployed. They are moving (up and down) and the inboard aileron appears to be raised and moving. I'll admit that I had to view it multiple times to see the aileron movement though!

User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9488 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting copter808 (Reply 8):
They are moving (up and down) and the inboard aileron appears to be raised and moving. I'll admit that I had to view it multiple times to see the aileron movement though!

You are right. You can clearly see the spoiler moving with the inboard aileron. That's roll control mode for the flight spoilers which is perfectly normal.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5544 times:

The spoilers deploy on the 'downward' wing when moving the control column left or right to aide the ailerons in roll control as previously stated, nobody in either company that I have worked for know how much aileron input is needed before they crack open. At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767. To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1499 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
The spoilers deploy on the 'downward' wing when moving the control column left or right to aide the ailerons in roll control as previously stated, nobody in either company that I have worked for know how much aileron input is needed before they crack open. At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767.


Spoiler "laydown" (747,757,767,777) or "pickup" (737) checks are performed in flight to insure proper rigging prior to delivery to the customer. Laydown -- appropriate spoilers should be cracked by 4 units (757) or 3 units (747,767,777) and down at 1 unit of aileron. Pickup -- appropriate spoilers should be down at 1.5 units (737) and cracked by 4 units of aileron.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767. To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).

I can't vouch for the pilot's technique, nor do I know what guidance their manuals have on aileron use in crosswinds (I have operated the 757/767 under various manual systems and the guidance on the sunject ranges from essentially nonexistent to very specific.) Having said that, I don't think there is any objective evidence that the pilot exceeded any limitations, and his directional control was excellent throughout the takeoff roll. If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.


User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 11):
Spoiler "laydown" (747,757,767,777) or "pickup" (737) checks are performed in flight to insure proper rigging prior to delivery to the customer. Laydown -- appropriate spoilers should be cracked by 4 units (757) or 3 units (747,767,777) and down at 1 unit of aileron. Pickup -- appropriate spoilers should be down at 1.5 units (737) and cracked by 4 units of aileron.

Thanks for the information!

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.

100% conjecture, hence the admission of "looks like" in my post. I for one would have been at least having a 'discussion' with the Captain about whether it is sensible to take off into conditions such as those in the video, regardless of what is written within the airlines' operating manual.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 14, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 13):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.
100% conjecture, hence the admission of "looks like" in my post. I for one would have been at least having a 'discussion' with the Captain about whether it is sensible to take off into conditions such as those in the video, regardless of what is written within the airlines' operating manual.

I understand your point, but wished to clarify it for all those here. If you were qualified on the 75/67 (which presumably you were/are) and you approached me as the Captain I would be happy to discuss it with you.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1499 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):
Ordinary cross-wind takeoff - nothing unusual. Spoilers are linked to ailerons to provide roll (in this case x-wind) control.


  

Wet, gusty, crosswinds -- that's when the guy up front earns his pay.


User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2175 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3956 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).

Where did this aircraft run out of rudder authority ? Believe it is rudder authority that determines maximum crosswind limits, not aileron or spoilers.

In Russia, you no fly on airplane, airplane flies you.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 838 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

I recall some 737 videos - directly from Boeing, I believe - showing the differences in take off distance with and without roll spoilers deployed throughout the take off roll; it was significant, but I can't remember what percentage of the increase.

So my former employer's policy was to limit control wheel to deflection to not more than 10 degrees until rotation/lift off began.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
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