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ATC Attitudes In The United States  
User currently offlineDFWJIM1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 302 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7805 times:

Hello everyone,

I enjoy listening to air traffic controllers at many large airports in the United States on a regular basis via liveatc.net and it seems like at some airports (DFW,ORD,AUS) the air traffic controllers are very helpful and enthusiastic while at other airports (MIA, FLL, LAX) not so much. Could this be due to poor relations with upper management, regional/cultural differences or is it just what is?

Thanks for your responses.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7738 times:

I largely don't agree with your list of "helpful" and "unhelpful" airport controllers (except for your appraisals of MIA and AUS, though I can think of numerous better examples in each category,) but everyone will have different opinions. Staffing, regional and cultural differences, facility management, and individual attitudes all play a part like in most professions. There are certainly places I loathe flying into in large part because of terrible ATC (e.g. JFK) and other places where I am virtually sure I will always be treated courteously. I don't know all the variables involved in ATC culture from a controller's viewpoint, but from a pilot's viewpoint I agree with you that there are genuine differences between facilities.

Interesting question.


User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 285 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7719 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 1):
terrible ATC (e.g. JFK) and other

Could you explain this? I've never flown there.

Erich



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlinegoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7716 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 1):
There are certainly places I loathe flying into in large part because of terrible ATC (e.g. JFK)

I feel compelled to chime in here, reading this.

I find the difference between JFK and EWR to be night and day!

I don't know if comes from the top down at EWR or what, but what a bunch of courteous, calm professionals on the radio there, 100% of the time. Never raise their voice, never sound perturbed about repeating a clearance, always have your back by politely asking you to read back your clearance again if they think you didn't get it right, etc.

Meanwhile over at JFK and even LGA a little for that matter, I agree completely with you -- I think they absolutely earn their little sound clips on liveatc.net for a reason. They create their own mess and get flustered almost for the sake of it and it just unravels from there. Just terrible.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7688 times:

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 2):
Could you explain this? I've never flown there.

Goboeing covered it perfectly. I completely agree with his assessment. JFK repeatedly over my 23 years flying in and out of there has the rudest, least professional controllers of any factilty in the US...Scratch that: of any faciility I have ever been to in any country.

Quoting goboeing (Reply 3):
I don't know if comes from the top down at EWR or what, but what a bunch of courteous, calm professionals on the radio there, 100% of the time. Never raise their voice, never sound perturbed about repeating a clearance, always have your back by politely asking you to read back your clearance again if they think you didn't get it right, etc.

Meanwhile over at JFK and even LGA a little for that matter, I agree completely with you -- I think they absolutely earn their little sound clips on liveatc.net for a reason. They create their own mess and get flustered almost for the sake of it and it just unravels from there. Just terrible.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7589 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 1):
(except for your appraisals of MIA and AUS, though I can think of numerous better examples in each category,)

From pilots who fly there often what are the perceptions of MIA. I have never heard anything which has seemed poor from MIA tower/ground while listening online or anything from Miami approach while listen online or even from my limited experience flying in the airspace.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7438 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 2):
Could you explain this? I've never flown there.

Take a listen to this http://youtu.be/7BMDkwfkXv0 . Granted it is one 10 minute clip where someone goofed. But the general attitude is the same across the board. I highly recommend listening to a couple of the JFK videos, they can be pretty interesting. Whenever I hear this controller on LiveATC I break out the popcorn, you know it is going to be a good show.

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Thread starter):
Could this be due to poor relations with upper management, regional/cultural differences or is it just what is?

Probably just a bunch of factors, stress may be a big one, or simply they may just not want to deal with you. I know when I hop into busier areas in a Cessna they seem to be annoyed. Whenever you fly into FAR you'd think they are letting you into the Minneapolis Class B when they are just a fair sized Class D.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 2):
Could you explain this? I've never flown there.

As mentioned - youtube NY/JFK ATC. You'll find ample examples of how not to treat your customers...

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
Goboeing covered it perfectly. I completely agree with his assessment. JFK repeatedly over my 23 years flying in and out of there has the rudest, least professional controllers of any factilty in the US...Scratch that: of any faciility I have ever been to in any country.

Even more sadly, and this coming from an active ATC, whenever I hear these JFK clips where the ATC is berating (or being just plain rude), I cringe.

The attitude. The tone. The sarcasm and mocking (and ultimate apparent rudeness). It all goes against everything I know and teach my students.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
a good show

I think it is exactly that. I get the impression that they think they have an audience and they are the stand-up comedians. For instance, he wouldn't have to repeat a clearance 6 times (and then likely give the pilots a sarcastic comment/ bollocking) if it was understandable the first 5 times. Sometimes I get the impression its a little deliberate.

Its a pity really, as they are not the only busy centre in the world. Lots of centres handle lots of traffic, and they do it without the "comedians"...



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User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5903 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7348 times:

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 7):
The attitude. The tone. The sarcasm and mocking (and ultimate apparent rudeness)

That's what I've noticed about the JFK YouTube clips. Obviously they are a tiny, tiny sample of ones that were "noteworthy" enough to be posted, but JFK Tower/NY Approach is statistically over-represented and the "worse" ones that are on YouTube seem to be from there.

I know that JFK/NYC is very busy airspace, but by way of comparison I haven't found any egregious examples from, for example, LHR Tower/LON Approach. London is the busiest airspace in the world, and is probably a better comparison to JFK than Podunk, MN.


One thing I've noticed about US ATC generally is the speed at which they speak. I struggle to keep up, and I'm a native English speaker. I do feel sorry for foreign pilots (especially Asian pilots) when JFK Tower give them a good schalacking for not understanding a communication. There's even a video of a TOM pilot not understanding at SFB - a British pilot at a relatively quiet facility.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
I do feel sorry for foreign pilots (especially Asian pilots) when JFK Tower give them a good schalacking for not understanding a communication.

Exactly- if a non-native english speaker says "say again", then I always dial down the speed a notch or two. Personally, I try keep a reasonable speech rate all the time, because talking faster just doesn't save you time when you have to repeat everything 3 times...

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
a tiny, tiny sample

That is true. It is a small sample - I am sure there are some fine professional ATC's at those centres. However they are let down by their colleagues...



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User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31240 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7299 times:
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As a Channel 9 listener on UA, I was always partial to the folks at Oakland Center. Always seemed to be in a good mood and possessed of both a sharp wit and sense of humor. Chicago Ground was always a hoot, as well, considering the chaos that is O'Hare when UA and AA have a shedload of ground movements in play.

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

Great topic!

IMHO,management plays a huge part in many of the controllers attitude on the radio, work habits and over all happiness at work. A good management team from the Air Traffic Manager right down to the last Front Line Manager (Supervisor) and you'll find controllers and NATCA working hand in hand to make the facility operate smooth with little complaining (always some, it wouldn't be aviation if all were happy all the time) and a great work environment.

I've seen firsthand when a good ATM is in place and makes decisions with input from the entire workforce life is excellent, efficient and safe operation, everyone gets along and there is a mutual respect. Bring in a less than stellar ATM and/or FLM's who are micro managers and the place will go down the toilet in no time. That excellent control room becomes a room full of whining and it is clear to hear on the radio.

The nit picking ATM has no place in ATC, in most cases they haven't been on the floor in years if ever at the facility they manage. Let the controllers and those in the trenches who know best do their job and all will be able to detect a well run facility very quick.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7026 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
One thing I've noticed about US ATC generally is the speed at which they speak. I struggle to keep up, and I'm a native English speaker. I do feel sorry for foreign pilots (especially Asian pilots) when JFK Tower give them a good schalacking for not understanding a communication.

That's the problem...

English is the official language of aviation...learn it.

JFK has one of the hardest ground control in the country; It has washed out more controllers than I can count.

If you are going to fly a $200m+ dollar plane around the world, be on top of your game. If you have a re-route, copy it the first time...it shouldn't require repeating it 3 times on frequency. You should know what gate and taxiway you need prior to your landing. Not struggling because your company can't clear the gate fast enough.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6968 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
You should know what gate and taxiway you need prior to your landing. Not struggling because your company can't clear the gate fast enough.

It should be that simple, but it's often far more complicated. Maybe you haven't flown into many class B airports, but in my experiences, there are certainly instances when gate assignments change, alleys are blocked, ground crews are late, and much more. I've "driven" in circles at LAX as we waited for alleys to clear while simultaneously receiving new gate assignments. It's not rocket science, but it can be more complicated than your post would lead someone to believe.


User currently offlinegoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6969 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
JFK has one of the hardest ground control in the country; It has washed out more controllers than I can count.

Lots of class B airports wash out lots of controllers all the time. They don't act like a bunch of tools though. Only a few in that department. I'm sure the washout rate at EWR is just as high as JFK and yet they are so much more professional at what they do.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
If you are going to fly a $200m+ dollar plane around the world, be on top of your game.

Is anyone questioning whether the pilots are on top of their game?

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
If you have a re-route, copy it the first time...it shouldn't require repeating it 3 times on frequency.

What type of re-route do you mean? A go back to clearance for new airways re-route? Or a change of taxi instructions from ground control? I guarantee anyone getting a clearance re-route is copying it down the first time. And if something requires repeating three times on frequency, it's probably ATC that has made it so. There's a lot going on in the cockpit not to mention the fact that it is in motion and as little time as possible is to be spent looking inside while moving (and the one taxiing essentially can do no more than quick glances at the charts until stopped).

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
You should know what gate and taxiway you need prior to your landing.

If the ACARS is working.

And if it isn't, then if operations answers.

And if they do, then if they even know the gate.

etc.



I'll give an example of what I mean when I say JFK ATC sucks.

Some of them basically verbalize their own internal monologue over the frequency while they are figuring out what to do next.

JFK:"Let's see...who's coming out of taxiway bravo...that's gonna be jetBlue 461 I think...jetBlue 461 uhh, you know what disregard jetBlue, Delta 98 do you have a gate yet? [Delta has not been listening because the rambling voice on frequency sounded like they were giving someone else a long instruction]

DAL098: Delta 98, say again?

JFK: "Everybody's gotta listen up, it's very busy tonight. Delta 98, do you have a gate yet?"

DAL098: No sir.

JFK: "Okay tell you what I want you to do then, Delta 98, can you still make a left turn onto taxiway foxtrot from there?"

DAL098: Negative.

JFK: "Alright let's see I gotta move somebody, how 'bout Cactus 450 ahh disregard you're going over PARKE I'll call you back, American 755 I want you to follow the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left, follow the second CRJ from the left and then join taxiway bravo and give way to a Delta 757." [American has not been listening to rambling because it sounded like ATC was already talking to someone else]

AAL755: Say again ground was that for American 755?

...and so on.





The above at a normal airport goes like this:

ATC: Delta 98, do you have a gate assignment?
DAL098: Negative Delta 98.
ATC: Roger; left turn foxtrot if unable advise.
DAL098: Sorry, unable foxtrot from here.
ATC: Delta 98 roger; break; American 755, join bravo behind the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left and give way to a Delta 757.
AAL755: American 755 roger.



The JFK controllers, not all of them, and not 100% of the time, but overall, add an incredibly inappropriate amount of extra verbiage on the frequency and when there are items to cover on checklists or brief discussions of the taxi route going on in the cockpit, you have to filter out what is not being said to you on frequency at times, and it's a lot harder to filter a voice that doesn't SHUT UP once in a while! They create their own mess.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5903 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6904 times:

Quoting goboeing (Reply 14):
I'll give an example of what I mean when I say JFK ATC sucks.

Some of them basically verbalize their own internal monologue over the frequency while they are figuring out what to do next.

JFK:"Let's see...who's coming out of taxiway bravo...that's gonna be jetBlue 461 I think...jetBlue 461 uhh, you know what disregard jetBlue, Delta 98 do you have a gate yet? [Delta has not been listening because the rambling voice on frequency sounded like they were giving someone else a long instruction]

DAL098: Delta 98, say again?

JFK: "Everybody's gotta listen up, it's very busy tonight. Delta 98, do you have a gate yet?"

DAL098: No sir.

JFK: "Okay tell you what I want you to do then, Delta 98, can you still make a left turn onto taxiway foxtrot from there?"

DAL098: Negative.

JFK: "Alright let's see I gotta move somebody, how 'bout Cactus 450 ahh disregard you're going over PARKE I'll call you back, American 755 I want you to follow the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left, follow the second CRJ from the left and then join taxiway bravo and give way to a Delta 757." [American has not been listening to rambling because it sounded like ATC was already talking to someone else]

AAL755: Say again ground was that for American 755?

...and so on.





The above at a normal airport goes like this:

ATC: Delta 98, do you have a gate assignment?
DAL098: Negative Delta 98.
ATC: Roger; left turn foxtrot if unable advise.
DAL098: Sorry, unable foxtrot from here.
ATC: Delta 98 roger; break; American 755, join bravo behind the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left and give way to a Delta 757.
AAL755: American 755 roger.

  

Oh so very, very true



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1160 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6882 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
English is the official language of aviation...learn it.

Excellent advice, and I wish more of the JFK controllers would take it to heart.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17109 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6868 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
English is the official language of aviation...learn it.

Yes it is, but now we must define what "English" actually is, and that is not so clear cut. English has extreme regional variations in accent, vocabulary and to some extent even grammar. Native level English speakers often have a hard time with unfamiliar regional accents. Put a Midwesterner in a pub in rural Lincolnshire and see how well they get along.

It takes time to attune the ear. As an example, it takes about three to six months of living here to get used to "Hong Kong English", which can be almost incomprehensible at first even if the speaker is using correct grammar.

More importantly, there is also a difference between "colloquial English" and "aviation radio English". ICAO, and in cascading fashion national authorities, set down standard phraseology. For example "3" should be pronounced "tree" and "9" is "niner" but plenty of controllers do not use the exact terms. Seeing as controllers at airports like JFK must cater to airlines from literally all over the world, it would behoove them to use such standard phraseology and slow down a bit. The irony is that controllers from non-English speaking countries are often very clear since they are anal retentive about standard phraseology. Not being a native speaker means you tend to "play it safe" on the radio.

Or as PITingres puts it so eloquently:

Quoting PITingres (Reply 16):
Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
English is the official language of aviation...learn it.

Excellent advice, and I wish more of the JFK controllers would take it to heart.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinejgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Thread starter):
I enjoy listening to air traffic controllers at many large airports in the United States on a regular basis via liveatc.net and it seems like at some airports (DFW,ORD,AUS) the air traffic controllers are very helpful and enthusiastic

I don't have anything to add regarding the specific facilities being discussed here, but something that bugs me is that people on the internet often equate things like funny "catch phrases" and happy sounding voices to good controlling/controllers. Some controllers can make a stressful/complex situation sound easier then it really is. Other times controllers can take a relatively benign situation and make it sound like Armageddon. And just because they aren't throwing out one-liners doesn't mean they don't enjoy their job.

I'm not picking on goboeing but if you take his/her example:

Quoting goboeing (Reply 14):
Alright let's see I gotta move somebody, how 'bout Cactus 450 ahh disregard you're going over PARKE I'll call you back, American 755 I want you to follow the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left, follow the second CRJ from the left and then join taxiway bravo and give way to a Delta 757.

but imagine and jovial sounding voice instead of a condescending NY accent and think most people here would think it's an example of a great controller.

You can't judge the quality of the controlling by the sound of the voice. In fact without knowing the specifics of the operation and what is going off frequency it's impossible to know for sure what is going on and how good a job the controller is doing.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17109 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6802 times:

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 18):
Quoting goboeing (Reply 14):
Alright let's see I gotta move somebody, how 'bout Cactus 450 ahh disregard you're going over PARKE I'll call you back, American 755 I want you to follow the second CRJ in Delta colors from your left, follow the second CRJ from the left and then join taxiway bravo and give way to a Delta 757.

but imagine and jovial sounding voice instead of a condescending NY accent and think most people here would think it's an example of a great controller.

Umm, no. Non-standard phraseology. Confusing commands. Unnecessary clogging of the airwaves. Taxiing at a busy airport is hard enough.

I'm not a controller but on the aircraft side of the mike we were taught very early that if the radio is busy you should keep it brief and standardized. Most importantly, think before you press the friggin' button!

As someone remarked on this board a few years ago, you'd think there was a button in the cockpit which transmits "And-ummmmmmm..." just before someone actually speaks. 

[Edited 2013-11-07 20:42:22]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinejgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6791 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

I agree but that doesn't seem to be how many who aren't involved in flying as a profession see it.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5903 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 18):
think most people here would think it's an example of a great controller.

But just because "most people" on YouTube or LiveATC would think that its a "great controller" doesn't make it so. You still have a lot of unnecessary babble (Cactus, yeah never mind, what about Jetblue, nah maybe not) that clogs up the airwaves and drowns out actual communications



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6751 times:

Fight on kids....most of you have no idea what it takes to work in ground control at any airport, work local control at any airport, work RADAR for arrival/departure at any airport.....so let the folks on here who know give you the best examples of an arrival/departure bank and accept it no matter what they sound like, just enjoy it all.

Yes, management is the issue in most cases and the northeast attitude isn't the problem!

Good night now.....SEEYA 



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6733 times:

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 18):
You can't judge the quality of the controlling by the sound of the voice.

No. But you can based on the disrespect they show pilots.

Quoting PITingres (Reply 16):

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
English is the official language of aviation...learn it.

Excellent advice, and I wish more of the JFK controllers would take it to heart.

Aviation English doesn't require fluency in, nor understanding of, sarcasm. If that's what you have to resort to on frequency then I shake my head.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 22):
management is the issue in most cases

And I was taught if you have to then sound like you have tourettes inside the tower cab, but on frequency you sound prefessional... We're also taught to consider pilots our customers, non an annoying mosquito that won't go away.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Most importantly, think before you press the friggin' button!

Seconded.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 12):
JFK has one of the hardest ground control in the country; It has washed out more controllers than I can count.

Is that really a licence to be a tool? My sector has washed out 65% of trainees this year. Does that give me a license to be sarcastic and rude to pilots? I don't believe so. Falling back on "oh but its difficult" doesn't cut it on the disrespect angle for me. Sorry. We're all grown ups and so is it so hard to just be respectful on frequency?

[Edited 2013-11-07 23:29:32]


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User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4224 posts, RR: 37
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting goboeing (Reply 14):

Nailed it!

JFK is JFK, but it routinely is embarrassing the way the controllers lambast the foreign carriers there for not being able to keep up with their added slang. The official language of aviation is english.... aviation english. Aviation english is not regular english. It is a very sterile and efficient english when utlized properly. Literally the maximum amount of meaning out of the fewest words possible. Works great, lasts long time.

Granted, the JFK ground controller position is just downright an awful place to be. 1 controller controlling an all out circus with probably a few "Ms. Piggies" (new favorite term passed on by a friend that flies the A380) running around that can't play well passing by others on the taxiways- plus those being held out due to ramp congestion. Things that a far far busier ATL does without batting an eye, JFK makes very difficult due to a combination of factors-primarily due to design as well as controller configuration during high volume times. They've made baby steps over the years, with the controller config. Add to that rattling off commands with slang to carriers that can barely keep up with regular pace aviation english and the subsequent repeats (why not get it right the first time and slow down a tad without the extra crap?), and you have a train wreck on frequency.



Chicks dig winglets.
25 Alias1024 : As others have said, there's certainly big differences from facility to facility and by this point in the thread it's obvious who most pilots think co
26 BEG2IAH : Thank you for a good laugh!
27 Mir : Well Delta should have been listening. If things are that busy, there's no excuse for not keeping an ear out for your callsign even when you think th
28 goboeing : Too much going on sometimes to listen to some monologue for an hour continuously. Especially when half of it is literally the controller verbalizing
29 Mir : Too busy to listen to an ATC frequency while on the ground? If an emergency's in progress, I guess that would make sense. Doesn't seem like a good ar
30 Post contains images SPREE34 : The FAA should take this advice. The 7110 is NOT ATC English friendly. Way too much verbiage, and some controllers just add to it. You'd think the Yo
31 PGNCS : Everyone misses things, controllers included. Using nonstandard phrasing, sarcasm, talking fast, and rambling to yourself on frequency are great ways
32 Mir : Missing things is one thing - it happens to everyone. Intentionally tuning out when an instruction doesn't start with your callsign in a busy environ
33 apodino : This is a great thread. One of the better known controllers out there was a guy who used to work in Boston Tower. He was nicknamed Boston John, and th
34 Post contains images LONGisland89 : I'm surprised about all this hatred directed towards JFK controllers. Have we all forgotten the reason of controlling in the first place? It certainly
35 Speedbird128 : Its not hatred. It's just merely surprise that somebody can feel the need to be outright rude to pilots. I don't stroke egos. However I don't belittl
36 goboeing : I'm not sure you understand it all the way through. Sometimes you must tune ATC out to get something done. For example. Today at MDW, we planned for
37 CosmicCruiser : My attitude was always a little different I guess, as for NYC area I just thought it was their brusk NY culture and never had a problem with it. Never
38 Post contains images sandrozrh : I couldn't agree with you more, nothing more unpleasant than flying into JFK. Clearly you've never flown into MAD and/or BCN That's not the point, al
39 Mir : Not really. Because there's no reason the captain couldn't take the radios while the FO was heads-down doing the work he had to do. And then when it
40 XFSUgimpLB41X : In reality they were probably just idly chatting about something ... with the controller rambling on the way he was, it's no surprise he caught them
41 sandrozrh : Just as 'unprofessional' as hearing "join F all across, left on A". It's obvious that he wanted us to cross 04L, but I want a proper clearance to cro
42 goboeing : Nope...rambling ATC = unacceptable and we're available on frequency but understandably won't necessarily completely know what's going on when called.
43 Post contains images PGNCS : Ah, but I have. Point taken, but JFK is still the worst in my book! Me either; JFK controllers are universally offensive to everyone. Being brusque d
44 Post contains images DocLightning : I am a Midwesterner and, while I haven't been to Lincolnshire, I've come across some accents during my travels in England that at first I didn't even
45 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : Ah, the language of New Zillund! This will help next time you're there. Technically a patois is a pidgin or creole, that is an agglomeration of two o
46 Post contains images RussianJet : Oh please....hate this, hate that....hate, hate, hate.....such an overused, inappropriately used, lost all meaning, completely incorrectly used word.
47 IAHFLYR : Sounds very similar to what I heard listening to CH 9, may even have been SLC....our flight asked for higher due to turbulence and the reply was "The
48 Post contains images DocLightning : Where did this come from? I need to send it to my Kiwi friends! OK, but I'm not a "typical" American. I've traveled far and wide, speak two languages
49 Starlionblue : I honestly can't remember who sent it to me first. I supposed it is from the murky depths of the comedy world wide web somewhere, or more probably Ge
50 RussianJet : Fair enough. I suppose the first thing that sprang to mind though with regards to NZ and Aussie accents is that we really were brought up on them wit
51 Post contains links Aircellist : http://www.mediaworks.co.nz/Portals/0/National%20profile.pdf
52 DocLightning : Not really. English ones did, though.
53 LONGisland89 : I think it's acceptable that I used the word. Consider the one gentlemen who ''loathes'' flying into JFK and the others who sharply criticized the AT
54 cornutt : This is terrible. Do they just hold their buttons down all the time? In my work with NASA, if we did something like this the flight director would co
55 PGNCS : Yes it is terrible. Thank you and the NASA professionals before you who are models of professionally-conveyed, concise, and relevant information. ATC
56 RussianJet : Thanks. I think 'loathe' was the only word close to 'hate' and the comment was about 'all this hatred towards JFK'. As you say, totally overused and
57 Speedbird128 : Yes, its like their inner monologue falls out their mouths. Its called inner monologue for a reason LOL. Then it becomes diatribe. Most of it unnesse
58 Trucker : Could be wrong on this this but I thought I once read on A-net that LHR requires all planes to have transponders so the ground controllers can keep tr
59 PGNCS : They do (as do most big airports), and still confusion reigns. It's simply poor controlling combined with an awful airport layout and many non-native
60 Kaiarahi : Actually, it isn't. Under Annex 11 of the Chicago Convention, the primary language of any ATC facility must be the language of the country/region in
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